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Breaking the MUSCLE Color Code


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#26 Soupie

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 10:49 AM

Yes, I forgot about the 28 packs!

Also he only splits up the figure groups if they were released at different times, or belong to a subset (such as the versus figures).  Basically none of his Part pages will have the figures seperated into the trees they belong to.  This only occured like twice or so.

I didn't mean to imply that Naochin had the figures divided into trees for each part in his archive.

However, the fact remains that due to some Kinnikuman being released differently, and due to Naochin making note of this by listing them seperately, he has inadvertently shown us (more) proof that Kinkeshi were molded in "trees."

Check it out!

Kinnikuman Part 6

MUSCLE Part 6

In other words, we would not expect to see such a pattern within the parts -- and between Kinnikuman and MUSCLE -- if there were no trees.
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#27 jkaris

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 11:35 AM

I don't think that there is any question as to whether they were molded on trees or not. The question is, how were the trees set up? Which figures were on which trees?
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#28 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 11:38 AM

To soupie,
LOL! I wasn't implying that you were implying that Naochin's site was set up that way. But the way you said it could confuse someone, so I just made sure that anyone who may be confused would understand what you meant. Sorry if I made it sound like I was correcting you. I know you knew that. ^_^

Edited by Universal Ruler Supreme, 14 April 2006 - 11:40 AM.

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#29 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 11:51 AM

I don't think that there is any question as to whether they were molded on trees or not. The question is, how were the trees set up? Which figures were on which trees?

Is it possible that In me and Soupies Tree rambling over the past month that we have failed to answer these questions?? ^_^

We know Exactly which figures were on which trees, we just havn't posted the results since Soupie is doing so on his site at his own pace, and I wouldn't want to discredit his hard work. Also from Arforbes String find we know that there were approximately 2 of each figure on each tree. In some cases, such as 161 Atlantis, it is safe to assume there were probably 5 to 10 figures on his tree since he was made seperately.

The only figures that we cannot be sure of are the Non-Muscle sculpts. You will notice on Soupies Parts pages he list the Non-Muscle sculpts at the bottom of the page if it is unclear to which tree they belonged. Also as with Part one you will notice that Brocken, the only sculpt missing from that part is set to a tree, because it is believed that since there was an even number of sculpts in that part that there would have been the same number on each tree.

Does that make sense?
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#30 jkaris

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 12:46 PM

I don't think that there is any question as to whether they were molded on trees or not. The question is, how were the trees set up? Which figures were on which trees?

Is it possible that In me and Soupies Tree rambling over the past month that we have failed to answer these questions?? ^_^

Actually, my post was more in reply to Soupie's post which made it seem like he was still trying to prove that they were molded on trees. That was proven with Alex's find. The point of my post was to say that there is no question as to the fact of the tree molding process, but rather only that we (actually you two, since all the work is yours) aren't 100% on which figures were on which trees and which colors they were made in.

It just puzzled me that he would still be trying to asert that the tree theory is fact, when I was under the assumption that everyone already took it for fact. Thus, preaching to the choir, beating a dead horse, or however else we could analogize it. My point was tht his point was moot, since it has been common knowledge since the beginning of this research that you two have started.
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#31 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 03:40 PM

Oh! I see your point. I was a bit confused at that myself, but maybe he keeps bringing it up because only a few members (mostly the vets) have shown dire interests in the subject.

Again (excuse me if I just beat the horse once more) we are exactly 99.9% sure of which "MUSCLE" sculpts were on each tree, and are at most 90% sure of which colors each were made in (we still need photo evidence of a good portion). We are officially 10% sure of where the Non-Muscle Sculpts go, if that. :(

Also I was sort of being sarcastic in the beginning of my last post, cause I was still unsure of what you were trying to get at. I understand now.
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#32 Soupie

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 05:09 PM

Me beat a topic to death? That's unpossible.

:(

In my defense, dammit, I was partially just excited to find that the figures Naochin had set apart matched the tree patterns URS had given me! I really wasn't sure if they would until I put all the appropriate MUSCLE images together. When it turned out they matched perfectly, I figured the most meaningful way to share the news was to illustrate how it fit into the puzzle.

The other reason I presented it that way is because of Tortle's latest post on his site:

Apparently, all the molds in a part were hooked up to a common injector which shot the plastic into the molds all at once. As discussed at AKIA, this may tell us which MUSCLE colors were available for which parts. For example, if a MUSCLE from Part 1 has been found in blue, then it may be inferred that all MUSCLEs from Part 1 were available in blue since they were all injection-molded with the same plastic at the same time.

I'm not trying to make a big deal out of the post, but I got the impression Tortle either doesn't completely buy into the Tree Code or doesn't completely understand it. I figured others might be in the same boat.

That's all. Well, that and the fact that I tend to be a little pedantic.

:)
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#33 Soupie

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 05:30 PM

Again (excuse me if I just beat the horse once more) we are exactly 99.9% sure of which "MUSCLE" sculpts were on each tree, and are at most 90% sure of which colors each were made in (we still need photo evidence of a good portion).  We are officially 10% sure of where the Non-Muscle Sculpts go, if that.

In regards to which colors each tree was made in, so far, there have been a few instances when the MDB data indicated a particular tree should have figures in, say, Orange, and Arforbes didn't have any in Orange.

Furthermore, the MDB only shows a few, 1 or 2, of these figures found.

Arforbes not having any in the tree in said color and only 1 or 2 being reported as found on MDB means they could very well be mistakes.

I've been on the fence whether to list these rows as "Rare" or "Not Made." It's kind of like choosing the lesser of two evils, cause it would be unfortunate to be wrong either way.

A good example is

Part Five, Trees 1 and 2.

Now, this isn't really a problem if several people have listed the figures as found -- earning the color an "uncommon" or "common" listing -- and arforbes doesn't have one in said color. I'm really just concerned about the colors labeled "rare."

Perhaps I'll make a new button called, simply, "Uncertain."

Any thoughts?

Also, I was placing the Non-MUSCLE sculpts at the end of trees where they seemed to fit. However, right away with part two, this became difficult because even if, say, there were two trees of 4 and two Non-MUSCLE sculpts, I could guess that each tree got one Non-MUSCLE sculpt... but I really wouldn't know which sculpt went with which tree for certain.

Thus, I figured I'd just list all Non-MUSCLE sculpts at the bottom and allow readers to use their own judgement. Does that maketh sense?
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#34 jkaris

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 05:37 PM

I would put a "Not Found Yet" for ones that should be made in that color, according to the trees, but haven't been verified.
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#35 TheOrgg

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 07:33 PM

You say there's usually two of a figure on a Tree, correct?

What if that figure didn't have the "thematic" element they wanted to be apparent, but still had the "cool" factor they wanted, or was a figure that had several other forms but wasn't "forefronted" on the packaging (like sunshine's top, for an example of both).

Why wouldn't they just plug one of the sculpts on the tree?
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#36 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 08:19 PM

You say there's usually two of a figure on a Tree, correct?

What if that figure didn't have the "thematic" element they wanted to be apparent, but still had the "cool" factor they wanted, or was a figure that had several other forms but wasn't "forefronted" on the packaging (like sunshine's top, for an example of both).

Why wouldn't they just plug one of the sculpts on the tree?

Well the two figure thing is really just hypothesis, but Arforbes find gives us reason to believe so.

Also I don't think theme or cool factor was of any concern when picking and choosing sculpts for the Muscle line. Most of the Non-Muscle sculpts are quite unique. Also have you looked at the sculpts that did make it? There are like 20 Kinnikumans alone.:(

Also characters on the packages didn't have any significance either. They hadn't finalized the run yet apparently, because the back of the 28 pack has numerous Non-Muscle characters pictured such as Brocken and Black Kamfu.

All in all, if they even did use plugs, there had to be a very good reason why they didn't use some sculpts. Another possibility may have been that the plastic they were using wouldn't fill out the molds properly for some reason, and all the Non-Muscle sculpts we know of always or most of the time came out with defects. This may also explain why the 28 packs had posters with 400 figures on the back of them. Maybe they planned on using all the sculpts available, but the molds kept screwing up on them, so they said, "Screw just use the ones we can make." We will probably never know.
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#37 Soupie

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 11:24 AM

Here's one for you guys to decode:
Re-Issues

This set was re-issued late 90's early 2000's. Are they from the same trees? If so, it might help you further define those trees.

I finally had an opportunity to look at these. Very interesting...

Bandai seems to have chosen 5 trees from four parts. Specifically:

Part 6 Tree 1
Part 7 Tree 4
Part 8 Trees 1 & 3
Part 14 Tree 2

What's interesting is that each of the parts these trees were taken from has 2+ Non-MUSCLE sculpts. Just as with the MUSCLE line, Non-MUSCLE sculpts do not appear...

Did they choose trees that only had MUSCLE sculpts? Were the Non-MUSCLE sculpt molds shot? Did they pick out the Non-MUSCLE sculpts for the reissues?

My guess is:

1) The Non-MUSCLE sculpt molds were shot.
2) The Non-MUSCLE sculpt molds don't work with harder plastic.
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#38 jkaris

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 11:41 AM

My guess is #1. Bandai says that they don't have the molds any more. I tried to get them to make re-issue exclusives for me for the store a while back, and they said that they had neither the license or molds anymore.
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#39 jkaris

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 09:50 PM

Here is a pic of a purple #56 from a YJP auction.

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#40 jkaris

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 09:50 PM

And another.

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#41 Soupie

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 03:49 AM

Perfect, thanks!

But why YJP, I wonder...

:mellow:
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#42 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 21 May 2006 - 09:47 PM

I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this right now, but I picked one color in order to see how each other color would appear with that 1 color in each tree.

The test Color was Dark Blue.

32 of the 45 trees were made in Dark Blue, and 1 tree is uncertain. That means 12 or 13 trees were not made in Dark blue. Anyways heres what I got. Dark Blue is the Constant. (AW=Darkblue appears with Color x number of times) (DN=Darkblue Does not appear with Color x number of times) (UC=Uncertain)

AW/DN/UC
DB/R - 20 /12
DB/G - 20/12
DB/S - 22/ 9/ 1
DB/M - 15/17
DB/L - 20 /12
Db/O - 19/12/ 1
DB/P - 24/ 8

There appears to be a slight constant in some trees when it comes down to which colors will appear with other colors. I'll see if I can try out some other colors later. Maybe there is some sort of method to the colors afterall.
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#43 Soupie

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 04:37 AM

Nice work! I'm anxious to see any future results. Another statistic to consider is Color + Total Number of Colors.

In other words, if a tree comes in Dark Blue, how many other colors does it come in -- 4, 5, 6, or 7.

It might look something like this:

Dark Blue

8 trees come in 4 colors

8 trees come in 5 colors

8 trees come in 6 colors

8 tress come in 7 colors

Total = 32 trees

I already have the numbers on how many colors each tree comes in. I'll break it down by tree colors some time this week.

Another pattern I've considered is Mutually Exclusive colors. In other words, if a tree is made in Magenta does that mean it was not made in Light Blue (or some other color). However, that does not seem to be the case. Trees appear to be made in any combination of colors, which is interesting in and of itself.

Still, if we organized the trees by shared colors and number of colors, a larger pattern might emerge. It's worth a shot!
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#44 Soupie

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 06:27 AM

AW/DN/UC
DB/R - 20 /12
DB/G - 20/12
DB/S - 22/ 9/ 1 (Dark Blue?)
DB/M - 15/17
DB/L - 20 /12
Db/O - 19/12/ 1 (Orange?)
DB/P - 24/ 8

URS, of the two bolded combinations above, which colors are the uncertain?
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#45 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 11:46 AM

Another pattern I've considered is Mutually Exclusive colors. In other words, if a tree is made in Magenta does that mean it was not made in Light Blue (or some other color).

This is the idea I had in mind when I started to do this, but as you said it wasn't the case. However it appears there may actually be a larger picture to it. After I go through the other colors we might see something of interest.


URS, of the two bolded combinations above, which colors are the uncertain?


Part 13 tree 2 Orange, and Part 14 tree 1 Salmon I believe.

I didn't include trees where Dark Blue figures were not made.
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#46 Soupie

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 12:33 PM

Part 13 tree 2 Orange, and Part 14 tree 1 Salmon I believe.

I didn't include trees where Dark Blue figures were not made.

:mellow:

shizznit! That's right, there is a tree that is "uncertain" in Salmon.

In total, there are 5 trees with Uncertain colors, three of which have Dark Blue, and two of which you've apparently counted. So it looks like you may have missed Part 5, Tree 2, or did we get our signals crossed?

Also, how about the tree with Dark Blue as the Uncertain color?

P5, T1 -- Dark Blue (Other colors in tree: S, LB, R, O)

P5, T2 -- Orange (Other colors in tree: S, DB, LB, R, M)

P8, T4 -- Orange (Other colors in tree: S, LB, R, G)

P13, T2 -- Orange (Other colors in tree: S, P, DB, R, M, G -- every color sans LB)

P14, T1 -- Salmon (Other colors in tree: P, DB, R, M, O, G -- every color sans LB)
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#47 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 01:36 PM

I must have missed pt5 tree2. Also since the DB was uncertain, I didn't count it since it may be more than likely that they weren't made in that color.

I wish Phillymadison would come back. I know for a fact that he has certain figures that you don't have pictured in your archive, such as Light Blue #20.
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#48 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 02:12 PM

Here is Salmons results.

32 Trees made in Salmon, 1 Salmon is uncertain.
S/D - 22/ 9/ 1 uncertain DB
S/P - 27/ 5
S/L - 21/11
S/R - 24/ 8
S/M - 17/15
S/O - 19/10/ 3 uncertain Or
S/G - 19/13
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#49 Soupie

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 03:12 PM

I'm slapping these one above the other for easier comparing. Interesting that both colors are found in 32 trees.

Doesn't really appear to be any big similarties between these two colors, except for the 24/8 which is pretty interesting.

However, if the Dark Blue and Salmon uncertains are included, they throw all the numbers off by one, although the 24/8 would become 25/8 for each color. Also, unless all the colors appear in exactly 32 trees, we may have to look at ratios, as opposed to actual numbers.

One way of visually seeing ratios would by to throw this info into pie charts.

Can't wait to see more!

DB/R - 20/12
DB/G - 20/12
DB/S - 22/ 9/ 1*
DB/M - 15/17
DB/L - 20/12
Db/O - 19/12/ 2
DB/P - 24/ 8

S/D - 22/ 9/ 1*
S/P - 27/ 5
S/L - 21/11
S/R - 24/ 8
S/M - 17/15
S/O - 19/10/ 3
S/G - 19/13

Edited by Soupie, 22 May 2006 - 03:36 PM.

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#50 Ne]V[esis

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 07:25 AM

Soupie-
Is the list on your site completely accurate?
The reason I ask is this-

I have probably 7 of the colored figures you have a blank spot for..
I can give you specifics and pics of them later if you would like, I am at work at the moment, so I can't now.

Let me know
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