140 replies to this topic

[Soupie]

Ah, haha, what a surprise, more ambiguous MUSCLE information!

Injection Molding Forum Question and Response

Still interesting! Maybe some other members will chime in.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Nice. I wonder if he fully understood the question though. He seems to think you have the mold itself.

[Soupie]

If I had the mold myself, I'd be able to tell if the cavities were swappable.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I think you may have just confused them more.

[Soupie]

I don't think they're confused at all.

[arforbes]

If I had the mold myself, I'd be able to tell if the cavities were swappable.

Do you see the little edge that is above the head of each figure on the tree? It looks like the cavity may have been swappable. Its like two sections were joined, like the runner section was its own piece and that the figure molds were attached in place to that runner. Based on that distinct edge, it looks as if the individual molds may have been removable!

[Soupie]

Do you see the little edge that is above the head of each figure on the tree? It looks like the cavity may have been swappable. Its like two sections were joined, like the runner section was its own piece and that the figure molds were attached in place to that runner. Based on that distinct edge, it looks as if the individual molds may have been removable!

Unfortunately, I don't think those edges, which I believe are where the runners meet the individual cavities and is known as the "gates," tell us anything about the swappability of each individual cavity. Those edges would be there on both a static family mold and a family mold with swappable cavities. That's because both static and swappable cavity family molds have two pieces for each cavity -- the bottom/core and the top/cavity which is lifted off to remove the shot/figure.

But I'm certainly no expert. That's just my take on it. (Also, the individual in the injection molding former said he couldn't tell just by looking at the Kinkeshi frame.)

:shrug:

[arforbes]

That may very well be the case also. And like URS said, if these molds were swappable, then I don't think we would have seen the patterns in color production like we have seen from the results of the research from both of you.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Just my two cents again....it adds up you know.

I would think there would be at least 4 parts to a mold probably. The bottom, the two out top parts, and the middle main injection site. If this were a solid mold that is.

[Soupie]

Another kinkeshi tree. Unfortunately, not standard kinkeshi.

Note though that there doesn't appear to be the "edge" at each gate that arforbes' tree has. :shrug:

Attached Files

•  code167_img600x450_1202790979p1200182.jpg   35.11K   16 downloads
•  code167_img600x450_1202790984p1200183.jpg   38.86K   12 downloads

Edited by Soupie, 16 February 2008 - 09:03 AM.

[arforbes]

I just made a startling discovery looking at my tree once again, this time more closely...



As you can see form the picture of my tree below, on the tree there are 2 of each figure. Well, remember how I was explaining how I have often noticed different molds of each figure and how the inject points/overflow holes are in different locations on each figure? Well each figure has two DIFFERENT molds on the tree. Meaning that BOTH variations of EACH figure are included on the SAME tree!!!



So that explains the production of each figure variant in the Muscle line! And I flipped the tree over as well and took some pictures...and also showed some close ups of the different figure variations...



You can see the different hole locations and the slight sculpt variations.



When I flipped the tree over, I noticed some cylindric pieces of plastic in between the "branches" for the twin figure molds. Most likely this is another injection point where the plastic was flowed in. These are illustrated below...



This would surely prove to help balance the mold flow and make sure each figure filled properly and completely.

Edited by arforbes, 16 February 2008 - 09:35 AM.

[arforbes]

Another kinkeshi tree. Unfortunately, not standard kinkeshi.

Note though that there doesn't appear to be the "edge" at each gate that arforbes' tree has. :shrug:

That's because the edge gate is on the flip side...I don't think these were interchangeable molds, based on the flawless unity on the one side. I believe now like you said that one side was simply openable, to get the figure out after the molding process.

[Soupie]

Excellent work, Arforbes! This makes perfect sense, of course. I always assumed, looking at your tree, that since the sculpts were mirror images, that they would be identical. Using this info, we should be able to deduce exactly how many molds were used for each sculpt.

For example, if someone were able to find 3 MEAT figures with three -- even slightly -- different trademarking and ejector pin marking locations, than we KNOW there were 3 different molds. Like I said, in just about every other mini-fig line I collect, I have been able to determine TWO sculpt variations -- and this is probably due to them being created in the EXACT same fashion as kinkeshi/MUSCLE as seen above!

Now... the search is on to see how many variations of part 21 Satan Cross we can find! I'll take high-res pics of my MUSCLE SC, TGB custom SC, and my kinkeshi SC and post them in another thread. We'll see if anyone has another variation.



PS -- I'm 99% certain those "cylindrical nubs" on the bottom of the tree are also ejector pin-related markings. In everything I've read, the plastic only enters from one spot -- the large, pointy sprue on the top, center of the tree.

Edited by Soupie, 16 February 2008 - 09:58 AM.

[arforbes]

Excellent work, Arforbes! This makes perfect sense, of course. I always assumed, looking at your tree, that since the sculpts were mirror images, that they would be identical. Using this info, we should be able to deduce exactly how many molds were used for each sculpt.

For example, if someone were able to find 3 MEAT figures with three -- even slightly -- different trademarking and ejector pin marking locations, than we KNOW there were 3 different molds. Like I said, in just about every other mini-fig line I collect, I have been able to determine TWO sculpt variations -- and this is probably due to them being created in the EXACT same fashion as kinkeshi/MUSCLE as seen above!

Thanks! But just for the record I have only seen 2 different variations of figures in all my years of collecting...that I can recall that is.

Maybe only two different molds then, and the same exact "copy" of the tree mold in each factory, or probably even multiples of that. But I would say exact duplicates of the trees existed in each factory then.

And like I said before, I have never seen a SC variant. Maybe because on his tree the legs were on the other side to balance it out? Would explain the fact that we have never seen the legs attached and the fact that I have never noticed a SC variant with the 50+ or so I have had in my possession in my years of buying and selling them.

[Soupie]

Maybe only two different molds then, and the same exact "copy" of the tree mold in each factory, or probably even multiples of that. But I would say exact duplicates of the trees existed in each factory then.

If, indeed, it is even possible to have an EXACT copy of a family mold. For instance, if it were possible to make exact copies of an entire family mold, why not have the EXACT same copy of each individual mold on each side of the tree? (I don't think moving the ejector pin locations around was necessary for "balancing the family mold. If they could have simply made an exact copy, I think they would have.) If they couldn't even use exact copies of individual molds on each side of a tree, why assume that they could make an exact copy of an entire tree? Maybe, just maybe, there was only one family mold -- with two of each sculpt -- created. Again, it would be very helpful if we had a resident injection mold expert.

And like I said before, I have never seen a SC variant. Maybe because on his tree the legs were on the other side to balance it out? Would explain the fact that we have never seen the legs attached and the fact that I have never noticed a SC variant with the 50+ or so I have had in my possession in my years of buying and selling them.

Yes, I knew you had said you'd NEVER seen a SC variant, and that has to be significant! (Fifty fuggin' Satan Crosses, Arforbes!!! )

Question: Looking at your tree, are there ANY sculpts that ARE identical on each side?

Edited by Soupie, 16 February 2008 - 11:05 AM.

[arforbes]

Maybe only two different molds then, and the same exact "copy" of the tree mold in each factory, or probably even multiples of that. But I would say exact duplicates of the trees existed in each factory then.

And like I said before, I have never seen a SC variant. Maybe because on his tree the legs were on the other side to balance it out? Would explain the fact that we have never seen the legs attached and the fact that I have never noticed a SC variant with the 50+ or so I have had in my possession in my years of buying and selling them.

Yes, I knew you had said you'd NEVER seen a SC variant, and that has to be significant! (Fifty fuggin' Satan Crosses, Arforbes!!! )

Question: Looking at your tree, are there ANY sculpts that ARE identical on each side?

Yup, had to probably be about that amount by now. What can I say, I buy and sell like crazy.

And looking at the tree there are no two figures that are the exact same as far as variants go. Each mirrored side looks to be different from the other side in some small way, like the holes.

[Soupie]

And looking at the tree there are no two figures that are the exact same as far as variants go. Each mirrored side looks to be different from the other side in some small way, like the holes.

If that is the case, I am going to make the educated assumption that therefore, the part 21 Satan Cross sculpt was only on ONE side of the family mold he was in!

Similar to what URS said above, but different, this would explain why part 21 Satan Cross is "uncommon" even as a kinkeshi! Fewer of him were produced because only one figure -- not two -- was produced each time his tree was run in the press.

I just looked at my 3 Satan Crosses and they are all identical, just like the 50 you had, Arforbes!

But this puts us back at square one! If Satan Crosses' body was on one side of the family mold, and his legs were on the other -- how did they block his legs? And why did they produce SC's body in the flesh run, and nix it for the colored run?

Several months ago, if some of you recall, I posted the same question to that injection molding forum that I did above just recently. At that time, one of the injection molding people theorized that certain molds were starting to deteriorate and thus were "plugged." One thing I've noticed... my MUSCLE SC does seem to have a fair amount of flash around him. Perhaps the Satan Cross mold -- being on one side of the family mold only -- was just producing too much flash and was eventually plugged?

[Soupie]

Previous post on injection molding forum.

So it is a family mold with a peice o junk fishbone runner. a mold like this could see very large scrap rates after lots of runs, but these parts are clearly low tol. so hmmmmmm.

the final thought (with no facts to support)

In 1982 Ping Smith designed 21 molds that each produced 15-20 figures. Becasue of crap runners on famliy molds 3 of these molds produced high scrap rates but nobody knew why. Because of the huge demand for each figure and the entire set these scrap rates were acceptable.

When offered in the states the high scrap molds were not used and the 45 odd figures were lost never to be seen again. somebody made an extra buck and all americans were left wanting.

---

[H]igh scrap cavities were blocked then. so 1000 shots get you 1000 of five of the six peices and 750(maybe less) of the high scrap sixth cavity. so instead of running 250 extra shots for each cavity you block the sixth lose a figure, cut cycle and minimize scrap.

Edited by Soupie, 16 February 2008 - 11:43 AM.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Well, there are two spots that I sort of notice on SC. He has a spot in between his feet where it looks like a sprue was removed. Then on the horn on his helmet, there appears to have been a really thin sprue there. Dunno.

I like that idea though about there only being one SC on a mold, but that doesn't help with how he was removed from the color set.

And what about that Glitter tree that was on YAJ last year? I don't think there were two of each figure on that tree were there? I still don't believe that every tree had the same arrangement as the one Alex has.

[arforbes]

Well, there are two spots that I sort of notice on SC. He has a spot in between his feet where it looks like a sprue was removed. Then on the horn on his helmet, there appears to have been a really thin sprue there. Dunno.

I like that idea though about there only being one SC on a mold, but that doesn't help with how he was removed from the color set.

And what about that Glitter tree that was on YAJ last year? I don't think there were two of each figure on that tree were there? I still don't believe that every tree had the same arrangement as the one Alex has.

Yup, I am sure SC was "born" if you will through spurs from his feet. Some figures are attached by the head, others by the feet as we can see from my tree as well.

I think the tiny nub on SC's helmet horn is just excess plastic form the mold, I think all the SCs have that. Just the way the mold was sculpted.

But I agree, it is possible that not all trees were doubled up like mine appears to be.

[Soupie]

Well, there are two spots that I sort of notice on SC. He has a spot in between his feet where it looks like a sprue was removed. Then on the horn on his helmet, there appears to have been a really thin sprue there. Dunno.

Yeah, my MUSCLE Satan Cross also has the flash on his helmet, but my Keshi one's helmet is smooth as Doc's arse.

And what about that Glitter tree that was on YAJ last year? I don't think there were two of each figure on that tree were there? I still don't believe that every tree had the same arrangement as the one Alex has.

I'm %#@*& kicking myself because apparently I didn't save pics of that tree! However, the seller appears to have broken it up and is selling it off figure by figure.



In any case, it is a re-release set and as I recall seemed to be using a runner system very similar to the ones we've been seeing for the Mini Kinkeshi. (Which, to my eye, looked even crappier than the one used for the standard kinkeshi.)

But you're right. It would be going too far to assume every family mold from the standard kinkeshi line is setup exactly like the one Arforbes found. (But, like I said, in most mini fig lines I collect, there's usually 2 sculpt variations...) Also, we're still faced with the fact that there only seems to be one sculpt for part 21 SC!

[matthewf1tz]

And what about that Glitter tree that was on YAJ last year? I don't think there were two of each figure on that tree were there? I still don't believe that every tree had the same arrangement as the one Alex has.

But I agree, it is possible that not all trees were doubled up like mine appears to be.

Maybe having the figures paired up on trees just made commercial sense? It looks like trees didn't have to be doubled up at all judging by Gilgar's old thread that was dug up recently, here's the relavent pics:

 gilgars1.jpg   145.42K   5 downloads  gilgars2.jpg   149.23K   5 downloads

Because they were playset exclusives perhaps they didn't warrant as many figures as the standard line and were therefore in single file with the tree just being chopped every two figures and put in the box?

and also the picture I posted earlier that turned out to be re-issue ( ) had a different figure on either side:

 attached_figs.jpg   18.72K   9 downloads

so there is no reason why SC wasn't like that. The standard figures must have been 'sorted' somehow prior to packaging as (as far as I know) 2 same figues have never been found in a pack? The legs could simply have been sorted out and thrown/recycled? This is if they couldn't be plugged.

If individual molds could not be plugged and the sorting process was relied on (I'm guessing that would be manual rather than mechanical ) maybe that explains why some Super Rares slipped through the net and ended up in MUSCLE plastic in MUSCLE packaging?

[jkaris]

In any case, it is a re-release set and as I recall seemed to be using a runner system very similar to the ones we've been seeing for the Mini Kinkeshi. (Which, to my eye, looked even crappier than the one used for the standard kinkeshi.)

But you're right. It would be going too far to assume every family mold from the standard kinkeshi line is setup exactly like the one Arforbes found. (But, like I said, in most mini fig lines I collect, there's usually 2 sculpt variations...) Also, we're still faced with the fact that there only seems to be one sculpt for part 21 SC!

Not a re-release set, but a regular 1991 set. Although, the 1991 series was the first to use the new rubber instead of eraser rubber.

[TheOrgg]

Personally, I'm amazed you can even tell the differences in the two figures; I couldn't see a single difference.

[Soupie]