My Search for MUSCLE Answers, Mattel, Bandai, etc. Options

[General Veers]

After taking part in all of our discussions I decided I would try and go right to the source. I knew that people had attempted this before, but I decided to get answers or die trying. Well, I almost died.

I started out by contacting Mattel. Since they don’t just hand out email addresses on their site I used the “Contact Us”-thingy. This got me in touch with their Director of Customer Service. She was unable to help me so she passed my questions on to her boss. She however was able to tell me that the toys were produced at Bandai Japan, and were only in their catalog for the years 1986 and 1987.

I found this interesting. Perhaps the toys were only manufactured for 2 years? Year one flesh. Year two colors. If a toy was dropped from the catalog, then I think it is safe to assume they weren’t making any more figures.

After I got this information I figured I was on track to get more information. I emailed the Director of Customer Service’s boss again, and said I already knew all of this information. I said I was looking for much more specific information. Since she could no longer answer my questions I got transferred to the VP of International Marketing. He said,

“Unfortunately Mattel's records relating to the specifics of the M.U.S.C.L.E. line are no longer accessible, so we are unable to answer your specific questions.

Similarly, in discussing your questions with Bandai today, they too no longer have information to hand that would address your enquiry.

I regret that neither Mattel nor Bandai can assist you.”

I figured I was now at a dead end with Mattel. But I still had hope because now that I knew Bandai Japan had produced the figures I switched my attention to Bandai.

At first I contacted Bandai USA through their email. Surprisingly their Marketing Director called me. She told me that Bandai Japan had in fact been the creator (obviously) and manufacturer of the toy. Mattel only released the toys in the US. However Bandai USA did release the MUSCLE toys during the 80’s in Latin America.

I found this piece of information to be especially interesting because of Kenner’s relationship with Latin America. When Star Wars line was dying in the US, Brazil received a figure that was not part of the American release. Perhaps our Super Rares are exclusive to Latin America?

She also suggested two last options. The first was a product supervisor that is currently in charge of the Ultimate MUSCLE line. She gave me his name and contact information. However he only speaks Japanese, so I haven’t contacted him yet. I will as soon as my friend translates my letter to Japanese.

The second contact she suggested was 4KidsEntertainment. I contacted them immediately, but they never returned my emails. She doubted that they would be much help.

Having run into dead ends with Mattel, Bandai USA, and 4KidsEntertainment I figured I had one last chance. So I contacted Bandai Japan. Fairly soon after I had mailed the letter I got a response from their “Global Affairs”-person (I can’t remember the actual title, the letter is at home). She, in fairly broken English, stated that Bandai Japan no longer had any information about that product. She apologized, and wished me luck in finding the information I was looking for.

So there’s my story. I know I didn’t get GREAT information, but I think there were at least a few gems of information. Hopefully this information helps us figure out a more accurate history and origin of MUSCLE’s.

[Rokk]

Good detective work, Veers. I think you found some good gems of information. Hopefully you will get more info from the gentleman who is in charge of the current Ultimate Muscle line.

I find your suggestion that some of the super rares were figures made for Latin America to be rather intriguing. It is also interesting that Mattel only had MUSCLEs in their catalog for 2 years.

[doc_moore_j]

WOW!!! Impressive, most Impressive. (I was trying to quote Vader there, not sure if I did it right). That is pretty sweet, and obviously you have put a lot of thought into this. Great work Veers and thanks for the information. Considering your theory is right about the latin America super rares, that means I will be spending some time in Latin America chat rooms for awhile. That one super rare Star Wars dude you wanted is from there too isn't he? What up with them hogging all the cool shizznit. Man oh man oh man. Sweet post. I hope we can muster up something from what you have already started for us. Thanks!

[THEGODBEAST]

Veers I think you are on to something!!!

Here is my NEW theory!!!

BB and LB.

Once the BB line was ending they released the #77-#88 LB in the USA as a last ditch effort (not as many LB were produced as the BB). This we call "tail enders."

Ok, so in Japan it was still fairly strong, so they realease #89-#112 LB in Japan only!

With one HUGE exception.

This is a FACT! Takara decided to take #89-#100 and card them with guns, shields, and small sleds and dump them in Europe (Primarily from what we know ONLY FRANCE). These are literally Holy Grail MOC!!!

They also had a small either test market of USA carded ones or simply some salesman samples MOC that ended up in the USA! They were NOT in French.

So, my correlation is this. There is also a good chance since much of Canada is French too, there could have been some French carded ones or even the English carded ones in Canada.

My point is this:

Bandai has done a lot of toys in Canada. Canada has a big Asian community Toronto for sure! SO do we know where all the Super Rares have originated? Auction wise or other? Phil said his auction was out of Boston (not too far from Canada). This last auction for the SHA w/o head isn't it from Maryland? (once again not far from Canada).

So could the SUPER RARES been Canadian rather than South American?

I really think that this could be a direction to follow.

None the less, lets all keep our eyes peeled on Canadian auctions.

Heck even the MIMP Shreddies exclusives were Canadian only! ALso the BB bootlegs originated in Canada too!!!

Just an educated guess.

Good work Veers!

THEGODBEAST

[max powerz]

(in a singing voice) BLAME CANADA! BLAME CANADA! (lol)

[General Veers]

Thanks guys. Hopefully this information helps us figure out some of the mysteries of MUSCLE.

[ironmask]

interesting to say the least...
that these were in their catalogues so late into the eighties...
weren't they released in '84 or '85?
but still, any new knowledge is good knowledge...
good work.

[General Veers]

Nope. We now know their offical release dates.

[AmoiMan]

I was thinking of searching for answers the other day, but I was too lazy to act on it. Good job, Veers!

I think the Latin America and Canada stuff is really interesting....

[ironmask]

i remeber having them when i lived in kenton ohio... i was 5 when we moved to virginia from there... i was born in '81. so it could have been '86.
that's crazy.
veers, you should make a sort of 'almanac' on your findings. good shizznit.

[arforbes]

I found this piece of information to be especially interesting because of Kenner’s relationship with Latin America. When Star Wars line was dying in the US, Brazil received a figure that was not part of the American release. Perhaps our Super Rares are exclusive to Latin America?

This is a very interesting explanation, and it makes sense enough to me to be fact. It is quite possible that you have found the roots to our answers to the mystery of Super Rares. Satancross could also be Latin American/Canadian. All wee need now is proof.

Nice work Veers!

[Adamantiumwulf]

If they were a Latin American/Canadian or both release then the super rares may not be super rare at all. Just semi rare.

When sc was first spotted years ago no one knew anything about it and he was hard to come by. Now about 6 years later he is looked upon as being uncommon and not rare. Who knows what the next 6 years will hold.

Great work Detective Veers the M.u.s.c.l.e. sluth.

Here is a questoin though. Has anyone seen ANY M.u.s.c.l.e. packaging in spanish or french?

[doc_moore_j]

Here is a questoin though. Has anyone seen ANY M.u.s.c.l.e. packaging in spanish or french?

Good point,
My SC four pack is totally English, I will look and see if there is any sign of world wide distribution on it. I have not inspected it thoroughly. However, I am once again on a nice 24 hour shift, so it will have to be tomorrow I look at it. I actually do not have planned this weekend, so I may finally get some site work done that i have been promising for months now. I hope adamantiumwulf is correct, six years from now we will all own BHS and SHA and DM etc... I think since they are taking longer to come out they will still hold a slight price advantage compared to SC who I ahve seen as low as $15.

[General Veers]

Here is a questoin though. Has anyone seen ANY M.u.s.c.l.e. packaging in spanish or french?

I’m just guessing but I don’t think we’ll see any. The MUSCLE packaging is quite plain. A 4 or 10 pack could be sold all over the world with almost no need for translation. However the 28 pack would need some translation. BUT, we know that the super rares didn’t come in the 28 pack. Foreign distribution could have easily skipped the 28 packs.

[Tortle]

Has anyone seen ANY M.u.s.c.l.e. packaging in spanish or french?

Yup, I have a Canadian card back, and it has both English text and a French translation:

How to trash talk in French, MUSCLE style!

As I remember, there was no poster offer on the back, and the figures were all pink (so the pack was from the first release of the figures). Since the Satan Cross 4-pack does not have French, that would probably negate the Canadian theory.

-Nathan

This post has been edited by Tortle: Jul 11 2003, 06:08 AM

[General Veers]

Since the Satan Cross 4-pack does not have French, that would probably negate the Canadian theory.

Wouldn’t that actually support it? The SC was in an English pack, but other figures could have been packaged in English/French packs.

[Tortle]

Oh... I thought you guys were saying all the cancelled figures (which would include Satan Cross) were from Canada. Of course, the fact that SC was in English packaging doesn't really support the Canadian theory because we don't know what packaging the super-rares were in when they were purchased.

A seller of one of the SHAs said that it was purchased "in the Western New York area (near Buffalo)" and bought in "Toys R Us, Child World (out of business for several years), or Hills Dept Store (also out of business)".

Maybe Buffalo got some surplus from Canada. But Maryland (which was another super-rare location) is actually pretty far from Canada, so I don't think that supports the theory either.

I just think we're over-thinking the issue. The simplest, most likely scenario (to me, at least) is that the super-rares were cancelled early and recalled. I mean, products are recalled all the time for safety reasons. Other scenarios explaining the super-rares are not as likely: When has a prototype or a salesmen sample ended up in production packaging? When has product from Canada or Mexico filtered its way all the way to Maryland? Why would it even do so?

I think that DM, SHA, and BHS were recalled because of health risks (small parts, sharp points) and Satan Cross was discontinued because he didn't have his other half (which would have been a health risk as well). Nice and simple...

-Nathan

[General Veers]

When has product from Canada or Mexico filtered its way all the way to Maryland?  Why would it even do so?

I think that DM, SHA, and BHS were recalled because of health risks (small parts, sharp points) and Satan Cross was discontinued because he didn't have his other half (which would have been a health risk as well).  Nice and simple...

You’re probably right. The simplest explanation is usually the right answer. But I think that this is some interesting information. It could help us to understand our MUSCLE past.

As for the toys filtering I think the answer is easy. People move. Let’s say my Dad works in Mexico City. We live there for a couple of years, I buy a few packs of MUSCLE’s, and then we move to Maryland. Years later I decide to sell my MUSCLE’s. I wouldn’t think anything was rare, I would just sell it as a lot. Since this doesn’t happen all of the time (moving with MUSCLE’s), it would only introduce a few of the “regional” figures.

This post has been edited by General Veers: Jul 11 2003, 07:44 AM

[Tortle]

As for the toys filtering I think the answer is easy. People move.

That's true. Although that wouldn't comply with the SHA testimony... but, then again, who can really remember where exactly they bought something 20 years ago? And Buffalo, NY is pretty close to the Canadian border, so who knows...

By the way, you did a great job with your research! I doubt we'll get more detailed information than this, unless we manage to interview somebody who was directly involved with the MUSCLE line at the time. Could Mattel give out contact information regarding former employees, I wonder...?

-Nathan

[THEGODBEAST]

Nathan,
To be respectful, I think you are being a little too skeptical.

Veers is right people do move all over. I have!

My buddy who is now in Iraq, was a military kid. They lived all over the world! I am ashamed to admit this, however, when I first met him 10 years ago, he traded me a ton of rare Japanese candy box muscles and the first huge bag of muscles I ever had, (which later in college I sold since I needed cash). He had the coolest shizznit! Tons of rare Japan shogun stuff, muscles, mirconauts, etc.... He traded all this to me in Lincoln Nebraska, I in turned sold it in Lincoln Nebrasksa and Omaha Nebraska. Some of it I traded to my cousin who moved to Las Vegas Nevada and his dad gave it to a thrift store there! So toys end up all over!

I really think that the S. American (Mexico) and Canadian theories are valid and a real possiblity! Seriously Maryland isn't that far from the coast of Canada and people in the Buffalo area are close to Canada! So do we know where the other SHA and the BHS came from? General area of the USA?

Let's just keep our eyes peeled on where auctions are being sold and especially foreign auctions like Canada!

Bandai has has great distribution to Canada in the past, maybe even more so than the USA. So I really think that this is just as concrete a theory as the whole choking hazard thing. To be honest, I don't buy the choking hazard theory now that the DM has surfaced. Also, Veers did you happen to ask the Japanese man if he knew whether or not the molds were single molds or several characters per mold? I think they did have several figures per mold, however, I would almost bet they were several of the same exact figure per mold. So example, a mold of 12 #15's and a separate mold of 12 #195's. Not a mold of 12 different figures. Most companies produce figures this way.

THEGODBEAST

[THEGODBEAST]

Could Mattel give out contact information regarding former employees, I wonder...?

-Nathan

Yeah right!

With the new privacy laws!?!

Ha! Ha! Ha!

THEGODBEAST

[Tortle]

Nathan,
To be respectful, I think you are being a little too skeptical.

Wha...? Me? Skeptical?

Of course, all of our theories are possible, including this one. Please don't take offense, I don't mean to sound like I'm ripping into your theory or anything. It's futile to debate the origins of super-rares because all of our theories (especially mine) are absolute conjecture.

I just think it's more likely that they were recalled because SHA and BHS have small chokable parts and DM has a nice, sharp point in his cane. Some Kinkeshi had canes and such that came to a point, but they weren't dangerous because Kinkeshi are so soft. In hard MUSCLE plastic, Mattel may have viewed these canes as a hazard ("You'll put your eye out, kid! Ho, ho ho..."), and maybe that's why the Kinkeshi figures with canes (like King Robin Mask) weren't released over here.

Maybe the cane figures weren't a poking-hazard, but the canes were too brittle and broke too easily, with the broken piece causing a choking hazard.

Anyway, without seeing the figures in the packaging, or interviewing someone from Mattel, we will probably never know for sure.

-Nathan

[General Veers]

Could Mattel give out contact information regarding former employees, I wonder...?

-Nathan

Yeah right!

With the new privacy laws!?!

Godbeast,
I haven’t spoken with the Japanese product developer. But I will certainly add that question.

Both of you,
Actually I asked about this. I actually forgot. The lady I spoke with at Mattel said that most of the people that were “higher up” in the organization had either retired or moved on. As for “lower level” employees she said it would be almost impossible to know who worked on MUSCLE without knowing who the “higher ups” were.

But it’s kind of a pipe dream to think they would have detailed personal records, after 20 years, for such a small line of toys, especially since they weren’t the manufacturer.

[WhoDatMuscle]

Great job researching all that, Veers. Definately something new to think about, and I think a real possibility. I don't think I was around when the seller of the SHA told where he had originally bought it, so I don't know who he was or who bought it. I'm sure he told it like he remembered it (I'm certainly not calling the guy a liar) but who's to say for sure that he didn't get that particular MUSCLE in a trade or at a garage sale? Like Nathan said, that was 20 years ago. I can tell you the stores where I bought my MUSCLES, but I also got some from garage sales, and probably some from friends, and there's no way I could ever sort out which is which.

On a side note, I've never really gone for the choking hazard theory personally. Would SHA's head and BHS's chest insert really be that much of a choking risk? It seems like those parts are small enough that they would have a better chance of being swallowed without incident. Of course, maybe they just look like that to me since I'm now a small child. I don't own either so maybe Alex could tell us better about the size of those parts.

[jkaris]

I have a bi-lingual 28 pack.

p.s. Nice work Veers!

[General Veers]

It's futile to debate the origins of super-rares because all of our theories (especially mine) are absolute conjecture.

First off, I’m not trying to pat myself on the back. So please don’t take it that way.

Isn’t this the first theory that isn’t based on conjecture? Before the only information we had was the poster, a SC in a 4-pack, and Kinkeshi.

Now we know a little bit more information.

Who actually manufactured the figures? = Bandai Japan
How long were MUSCLE’s an active product? = 2 years
Plus that Bandai USA released the figures in Latin America too.

These are things we didn’t factually know.

I’m not saying THIS is the only theory. But it kind of goes back to our evolution vs. creationism debate. I think right now, with this new information, perhaps this is the leading theory?

Do you understand what I mean?

This post has been edited by General Veers: Jul 11 2003, 10:05 AM

[arforbes]

On a side note, I've never really gone for the choking hazard theory personally. Would SHA's head and BHS's chest insert really be that much of a choking risk? It seems like those parts are small enough that they would have a better chance of being swallowed without incident. Of course, maybe they just look like that to me since I'm now a small child. I don't own either so maybe Alex could tell us better about the size of those parts.

The SHA's head and the BHS chest piece are about 3/8 inches long and 1/4 inches wide.

[pasvagrsvj]

Marty, I'll ask you this since you know a lot more about molding plastic than the rest of us.

Is it possible that pieces like dm with his cane, bhs and sha with their small parts were highly susceptible to molding flaws? When the pieces were translated from the rubber material to the us muscle material maybe some didn't mold as well. If several toys out of each mold of 12 figures were defective each time you cranked them out, maybe you would just pull that figure from the line???

[General Veers]

On a side note, I've never really gone for the choking hazard theory personally. Would SHA's head and BHS's chest insert really be that much of a choking risk? It seems like those parts are small enough that they would have a better chance of being swallowed without incident.

The SHA's head and the BHS chest piece are about 3/8 inches long and 1/4 inches wide.

Here’s some interesting information about child safety. I think we should keep in mind that these are 2003 guidelines, not 1986 & 1987 guidelines. They could be different. I got the information here, http://www.safekids.org/

In 1994 and 1995 the United States Congress passed and the Consumer Product Safety Commission implemented the Child Safety Protection Act. The CSPA requires, among other things, the banning or labeling of toys that pose a choking risk to small children. The CPSA specifically requires:

2. Any toy or game that is intended for use by children who are at least 3 years old but less than 7 years of age be conspicuously labeled with a warning statement that the toy contains a “small part” and it therefore poses a choking hazard to small children. The Act defines a small part as one that fits completely into a “small part tester” with a diameter of 1.25 inches.

I also went to “The Consumer Product Safety Commission” and couldn’t find any Mattel recalls from 1985-1988 (Actually ’88 had something about cribs). Although I did find this…

http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/cpsr_nws03.pdf

On page six it has an interesting graph, notice that action figures aren’t on the list.

I have also contacted the Consumer Product Safety Commission to try and get addition information about 1986 and 1987.

Here is a link to other “watch dog” sites…
http://www.cpsc.gov/federal.html

[THEGODBEAST]

First off,
Nathan, I took no offense at all to your comments. I was only trying to turn down your well know "skepticizm!" (After Johnny's little SUPER RARE joke you are going to be super skeptical on everything now! Ha! Ha! Ha!) I don't blame ya (sorry for my part).

As far as molding process, the big plastics manufacturers use injection molding. There are rarely flaws or even flaws that would case them to stop production of a figure. Keep in mind everyone that Mattel, Bandai, etc... they don't produce the figures, they design them and send them to Tiawan, Hong Kong, Mexico, etc... plastic toy producing plants!

To be honest,
The super rares can be only 2 things:

#1 Salesman samples or prototypes

OR

#2 Foreign distribution or test market distribution


I believe they are #2!!!

Seriously look at other toy lines that had choking hazards and were stopped:
Battle Star Galactica the Cylons mini ships had red missle projectiles that were changed into glued in missles, however, tons made it to market.

Rocket firing Fett-never even made it to production.

Not to mention I agree that the BHS and SHA little pieces are less a choking hazard than a meat, peanut, or DM. The BHS and SHA pieces could easily go down with out harm like a vintage SW stormtrooper blaster!

No way on the choking hazard.

I truly think that they were tail enders and maybe only released in test market areas and maybe foriegn release.

THEGODBEAST

[Tortle]

Isn’t this the first theory that isn’t based on conjecture?

Hm... this debate is sounding familiar...

Anyway, we're making some pretty huge jumps of logic either way. I guess your theory is based more on evidence, although watch out for logical fallacies. This is the thought process here:

1) MUSCLE toys were also available in Latin Ameria and Canada.
2) BHS, SHA, and DM are really hard to find, and not shown on the poster.
3) Therefore, BHS, SHA, and DM were only available in Canada or Latin America.

That's a pretty big jump, I think, between events that are not necessarily linked. Of course, my theory isn't any better from a logical standpoint. I think you guys have pretty much convinced me that your theory is just as likely as mine with this statement:

The BHS and SHA pieces could easily go down with out harm like a vintage SW stormtrooper blaster!

Good point. My main reason for thinking the hazard-theory (which has nothing to do with the Dukes, mind you) was that BHS and SHA had small removable parts, and DM had a cane that could impale an eye. But now that you mention it, most of the freaking-out regarding choking hazards was with projectiles: Rocket-Firing Boba, Battlestar Galactica Viper, small Shogun Warriors, etc.

I dunno... maybe Mattel thought that the color of the BHS and SHA parts would make it look more like food... maybe the figures were available in another country... who the eff knows?

-Nathan

This post has been edited by Tortle: Jul 11 2003, 12:34 PM

[THEGODBEAST]

Yup,
back then most choking hazards were labeled choking hazards, they still made small weapons and accessories. They didn't pull them.

Back then it was projectiles, the whole "you'll shoot your eye out thing!"

So, I think that it really has to be either:

#1 Salesman samples or prototypes

OR

#2 Foreign distribution or test market distribution

They could be jumps, however, those are really the most logical explainations as of right now.

Either, makes these figures SUPER RARE!!!

Which still keeps Alex happy, you know, with his "Super Rare" diesease and all!
HE! HE! HE!

THEGODBEAST

[doc_moore_j]

Which still keeps Alex happy, you know, with his "Super Rare" diesease and all!

I heard it was more of a fetish. I saw him and Spinning head Ashura man dressed in drag. Just teasing of course Alex.

To add to the topic. I thought Muscle came out around 82' I may be wrong, I'll look at the copyrights on my four packs. As far as the super rares go, I honestly feel that they came out early in the series, which is why we have only seen them in pink. Remember talking about this a long ways back, there was someone who posted another Ashura man, it was a clip of a commercial for the Muscle Ring, anybody remember this or have that picture? Because that would make me assume there is another super rare out there, maybe super duper rare infact. The Ashura man had really long arms raised in the air. Someone post that pic dammit. Anyways. My two cents. I have done absolutely zero research, just been around for awhile to have my own ideas. I think the Latin America and French rares has some serious potential.

[arforbes]

Which still keeps Alex happy, you know, with his "Super Rare" diesease and all!

I heard it was more of a fetish. I saw him and Spinning head Ashura man dressed in drag. Just teasing of course Alex.

Haha!

Remember talking about this a long ways back, there was someone who posted another Ashura man, it was a clip of a commercial for the Muscle Ring, anybody remember this or have that picture?...

...The Ashura man had really long arms raised in the air.  Someone post that pic dammit.

I do remember that pic. I think all the M.U.S.C.L.E. commercials were done with Kinnikuman figures though, isn't that what someone said too? I'm not sure, but if they were M.U.S.C.L.E.s Doc, then that is definitely another Super Rare. We just need to find one!

[AmoiMan]

In 1994 and 1995 the United States Congress passed and the Consumer Product Safety Commission implemented the Child Safety Protection Act. The CSPA requires, among other things, the banning or labeling of toys that pose a choking risk to small children. The CPSA specifically requires:

2. Any toy or game that is intended for use by children who are at least 3 years old but less than 7 years of age be conspicuously labeled with a warning statement that the toy contains a “small part” and it therefore poses a choking hazard to small children. The Act defines a small part as one that fits completely into a “small part tester” with a diameter of 1.25 inches.

Hmmm....well then according to that, the smaller figures like the 2 Meats, Puyo Puyo, Doc Nakano, The Ball, & Sunshine 195 would probably be considered choking hazards.

I was a pretty firm believer in that theory.....ugh
Of course, the above was putinto effect 10 years after MUSCLEs

[THEGODBEAST]

Yeah,
But, choking hazards just means that the company has to label it as a choking hazard. It doesn't mean the company has to pull it from production.

Look at the Medabots today! By the way, those are some kick arse figures when you have them all (which I and my son do)! Those figures have some of the smallest parts ever!!! They disassemble and reassemble, with ultra super tiny parts way smaller than the BHS and SHA parts!

THEGODBEAST

[General Veers]

MUSCLE’s WERE NOT RECALLED!

Here is some more information I was able to dig up. It is from Todd Stevenson the Director of Office of the Secretary with the US Consumer Product Safety Commission.

Here are some of the questions I asked in the email I sent…

…Specifically I am looking for the guidelines for
small toys from the years 1985-1988.

The specific toy line I am concerned about is a toy that was released in 1986 and 1987. The toy line was called M.U.S.C.L.E and released in
America by Mattel, although Bandai owned the rights.

If a toy had small parts (e.g., 3/8 of an inch wide and ¼ of an inch
long) would this have been considered unsafe for distribution in 1986 or 1987?

Is there any record of recall with Mattel during these 2 years? If so,
what recalls were listed?”...

And here is the email I received…

A summary of the standards and the regulations are:

http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/regsumsmallparts.pdf

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/ge...ON=18&TYPE=TEXT

The testing guidelines for small parts are located at:

http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/testtoys.pdf

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/ge...ON=18&TYPE=TEXT

The standards for small parts in toys have not changed much since the 1980s.

Our searches of recalls did not locate any recall of M.U.S.C.L.E. toys or any Mattel recalls during 1986 or 1987.

The best way to search for recalls is to use the Search button on the website home page, for www.cpsc.gov

I think this is incredibly important information. It completely debunks the theory of recall, at least at a governmental level. If production of these figures had been stopped, then it would have had to have been internally through Mattel and/or Bandai.

[arforbes]

Sweet! Nice job Veers!

You have narrowed it down to two theories:

Either test or prototype figures,

or

Latin American/Canadian versions of the figures with different sculpts than the American toyline.

You are the man!

[Tortle]

Many recalls have originated from companies who voluntarily recall their products to avoid a legal incident. For example, recently a Disney licensee recalled a Boo Monsters Inc. plush toy last year because it had a button that could be ripped off and swallowed. There was no reported case of a child choking on the button, but the company voluntarily recalled it to avoid an incident.

So, this only proves that the government had nothing to do with a recall. It is very likely that a recall in this case could originate from within Mattel. I'd keep researching the recall possibility, if I were you. Maybe if you ask Mattel directly if they recalled any products from that time period?

But great information, regardless! You're narrowing the scope of possibilities!

-Nathan

This post has been edited by Tortle: Jul 14 2003, 06:22 AM

[General Veers]

I think this is incredibly important information. It completely debunks the theory of recall, at least at a governmental level. If production of these figures had been stopped, then it would have had to have been internally through Mattel and/or Bandai.

I know Nate, that's what I said. Just not as well.

[Tortle]

I know Nate, that's what I said. Just not as well.

Yeah, I know. I just wanted to point out that internal recalls happen quite frequently, so the tabloid-esque title of your post wasn't necessarily true. I did think my post was somewhat repetitive after the fact, but oh well...

By the way, I think you guys are leaving out a few other possibilities:

* The super-rares could have been part of another MUSCLE series of figures that was cancelled early in production.

* The super-rares might not be MUSCLEs, but either weird Kinkeshi or really elaborate bootlegs.

* The super-rares might not exist at all. The whole issue could be an elaborate conspiracy between Alex, Philly, et al.

I just thought that to really get to the bottom of this, we should consider all possibilities, unless we have direct evidence disproving them...

-Nathan

[arforbes]

* The super-rares might not exist at all. The whole issue could be an elaborate conspiracy between Alex, Philly, et al.

-Nathan

Haha!

Yeah, you got me...they're fake. Just like Evolution.

[pasvagrsvj]

It's always been my belief that the muscles and kinkeshi were made in the same factory. If this is true, I think it would be incredibly EASY for some figures to be cast in the wrong plastic. As a matter of fact, it would be hard to imagine a mistake like this NOT happening.

Johnny, do you know of any super-rares in the Japanese circle?

[General Veers]

I just thought that to really get to the bottom of this, we should consider all possibilities, unless we have direct evidence disproving them...

I agree Nate. That’s why I just emailed the person I had previously talked to at Mattel with an updated list of questions. I’ll let everyone know what he says as soon as I receive a reply.

And pasvagrsvj it would appear that they were. Bandai was the actual manufacturer of the toy. I would assume that the same factories were used. However quality control becomes an issue with that idea. The wrong plastic would have had to have been used, nobody catch it, and then get packaged. Sure Bandai may not have wanted to waste the plastic, but Japan is known for their quality standards. I think this would make more sense if they were made in the States.

This post has been edited by General Veers: Jul 14 2003, 07:29 AM

[pasvagrsvj]

I'm gonna go on record as saying that it was such a mistake that gave us our super rares. People always write off this theory because it is the least interesting, but IMO it's the most likely. The Japanese aren't super-human...they DO fxck up occasionally. Look at Pearl Harbor.

[doc_moore_j]

The Japanese aren't super-human...they DO fxck up occasionally. Look at Pearl Harbor.

How could you call Pearl Harbor a eff up? They destroyed us. We were the ones caught totally off gaurd.

[pasvagrsvj]

Retribution, my friend. Retribution that sent a message that is still heard, and still heeded to this day.

I could walk into a bar, find someone 2 feet taller and 100 pounds heavier than me and crack him over the back of the head with a bottle...I may have got the drop on him, and I may seriously fxck him up. But when he regains consciousness, I will have realized that I've made a huge mistake.

No offense, I know your wife's Japanese (right?) I'm just making a point about my super-rare theory.

[doc_moore_j]

No offense taken, and your right about it totally turning on them in the long run.

To keep to the topic, I did not know they were both made in the same factory. If so, why did they not make more muscles from kinkeshi sculpts? Why did we not get everything they got, if they already had the molds just a few steps away. It would not have cost them extra if they already had the mold handy right? The only kinkeshi that didn't make it over that I can understand is Blocken Jr. For his nasty nazi markings.

Out of all of these theories stated, I would have to go with the latin America and Canadian ones. Not so sure about the choking issues only because I had some heman dolls back then and they had small weapons and stuff.

[General Veers]

PLEASE keep this on topic.

I wasn’t saying they were definitely made in the same factory. However it wouldn’t be too far fetched to think that Bandai would use the same facilities.

As for my latest contact with Mattel I’m quite disappointed. I’m trying to find a new contact person. When I talk to the people at Mattel they keep trying to give me to the VP of International Marketing. The fact that I’m looking to talk to someone else is throwing them for a loop. I’m waiting for a phone call from them right now.

As for the last emails I received here is what I was told.

There's nobody around from those days who can answer any of these
questions, I'm afraid.

Sorry, as I stated before, there are no surviving records.

This worries me. What kind of company are they running if they don’t have any records? I’m going to keep hounding them anyway.

Do you guys have any suggestions for what department I need to talk to? I was thinking that R&D might have some records, made the head of manufacturing?

[THEGODBEAST]

Like I said earlier it has to be #1 theory or #2 theory. I just don't buy the choking hazard and I for sure don't buy the f*ck up theory. I also don't think the #1 theory is likely due to the DM showing up in a common auction plain as day.

I am putting all my money on the #2 theory of Canadian (I really don't think Latin America). Latin American toys sometimes obviously lack quality and/or official licenses. The super rares I have seen (photos on Nate's site) look high quality.

As far as customs, bootlegs, or scams, I don't buy that either. I am skilled and I cannot (as of yet) crack the muscle fleshie color code. Also as far as voluntary recalls, back in the 80's that is unlikely. The big law suits started happening way after Muscles. Back then, not many companies would voluntarily pull something especially if they didn't pull meat, peanut guy, etc... All they would do is label the package with a choking warning. That is the standard. They don't pull it, they label it and put an age on it!

I say everyone keep their eyes peeled on where these SR come from. Ebay auctions, watch the area of the US or foreign country. If anyone finds them in collections or at flea markets, swap meets, garage sales, thrift stores, etc... keep track of where that person is located.

THEGODBEAST