24 replies to this topic

[doc_moore_j]

I was thinking about this last night. Are we sure these super rare BHS and Ashura man are legit muscles? From what I understand, and I may be mistaken, but the new Kinkeshi were made of firmer plastic than the original kinnikuman. Is it possible that these two incredibly rare muscles are not kinkeshi? Why have we only seen one BHS, we have all seen a couple on the japanese auctions, but didn't think twice because we knew they were kinnikuman. Who's to say that we didn't get a couple over her by accident, or import and now they are the bane of our existnace. I want them both, I want to know for sure that they are indeed muscles, and not firm kinkeshi. Anybody with more information please post. I can see how a firm ashura man would feel like a muscle because he is a thick character, same goes for sunshine.

[Tortle]

As mentioned by Johnny, later Kinkeshis were made of a firmer plastic. I have a few of these figures, and the plastic is pretty similar to MUSCLEs. At first glance, I actually thought it was MUSCLE plastic. But if you really analyze it, you can tell that it's not.

I think that we really know so little about the Japanese Kinnikuman line that we shouldn't rule out the possibility that they used MUSCLE-like plastic at some point, and that the BH Sunshine and Ashura Man figures may actually be Japanese Kinnikuman figures instead of true MUSCLEs.

I'm going to wait until we see something that confirms that these figures were available in American MUSCLE packaging before I kill myself trying to find them.

-Nathan

PS - On a side note, remember that SamtheQ thought that the Futuristic Goalie was made of MUSCLE plastic, and we now know that it wasn't a MUSCLE at all, but a figure from a different series.

[doc_moore_j]

Speaking of the goalie figure and plastic quality. I recieved mine yesterday, he is pretty sweet, but if you really analyze it and look it over. His plastic is somewhat softer than muscle, and has a tiny orange tint to it. I am not so sure it would have fooled me except for the trademarks and all. I will be posting pics of this stud on my site this weekend. I have to study up on him a little so I have something to say.

[arforbes]

As the owner of one of the two Spinning Head Ashuraman figures, trust me you guys, he IS a true M.U.S.C.L.E. I have analyzed the plastic down to the atom, and it is indeed the same exact flesh M.U.S.C.L.E. plastic as all of our original flesh colored M.U.S.C.L.E. figures.

Ashuraman even smells like a M.U.S.C.L.E., there's no mistaking that! Jay (Midgetron) would agree with me completely I'm sure.

HE IS REAL!

[jkaris]

Ashuraman is for sure legit. JShurt (midgetron), who has just as many Kinnikuman items as I do, has confirmed that he is a legit MUSCLE.
My guess is that BHS is legit also, for the following reasons:

1. Two seperate people have confirmed this. The original owner, and Damon, the guy who out bid me for him.

2. Kinnikuman pink and Muscle pink are visibly VERY different and easy to tell apart in a hi quality scan/picture. When you look at the scan Damon sent me, you can tell he is a legit MUSCLE.

3. BHS and Ashuraman were not among the figures that were released in the new Kinnikuman rubber. (such as your Goalie guy is). So therefore, the only other way they could be found is in original Kinnikuman eraser rubber or in the more plasticy "crystal/glitter" rubber.

The only other possible theory for this is that someone, somewhere made some kinnikuman into figures with the exact same rubber used for MUSCLE's. However I doubt this.

[Tortle]

I do believe you guys when you say that the Spinning Ashura and BH Sunshine are made of the same plastic. No offense or anything, but I question their MUSCLE legitimacy for two reasons:

1) There are SO few of them around. I mean, how many thousands of MUSCLEs do we have between us all? I would estimate we collectively have about 5,000. And only one or two of each of these guys has shown up? That's just plain weird. It doesn't make sense that Mattel would make them in such limited quantities. Remember that molds are very expensive... they wouldn't waste that money on figures that they would only make a few of.

2) Many times throughout my years of MUSCLE collecting people have believed that certain figures were rare. Think of all the supposed rare "MUSCLEs": Futuristic Goalie, Lightbulb Guy, etc. They have all been proven not to be MUSCLEs (except Satan Cross) despite the fact that trustworthy collectors, including me, thought that they were legitimate.

I don't necessarily think that you guys are mistaken, and I really respect your opinions. It's just that I need some other evidence besides the fact that they were made with MUSCLE plastic before I flip out over them.

-Nathan

[Adamantiumwulf]

One other thing is there are no two part muscle men. There are quite a few two part kinnikuman.

They may look similiar to m.u.s.c.l.e. but so did the goalie guy that everyone got all worked up over.

I remember the excitement that arose when the group was small and some people got the light bulb guy ,the ghost ,the goalie and satan cross. The debate was on wether they were real muscle men because they werent on the poster and they had the correct markings.

All but one is a legit muscle.

The shortage of the figures makes it harder to belive that it is a real m.u.s.c.l.e.. Satan cross used to be thought of as rare and the majority of the group I belive has at least one.

Perhaps with the show starting and there being more attention possible attention on muscle we migth be able to pester somebody at Mattel and find out.

[Warsman]

want me to email mattel?

i've wrote like 100 letters to nintendo and got many answers
so i'll try my luck with mattel

just tell me what you wish to know beside the light bulb guy goalie and mr cross

i'll include it with my letter asking them about Generation 2 and did they get the rights to make the toyline for it

[el midgetron]

Ah, the unbelivers.
No one questions the ligitamicy of the M.u.s.c.l.e. Satancross. Mattle never produced Satancross in any other color other than flesh. Its my belife that this is because they decided to cut the figure from the line shortly after production started. I think its likely that if Satancross met this fate at Mattle other figures may have as well. If you look at the comercial on the CD I gave out, 13 seconds into it you will see that there is a figure in it that was never part of the 233 (check out URL below). It is a known kinnikuman figure (part of a posed set) but it appears to be produced by Mattle. I have no doubts that some of these early figures that were cut from the line some how made it into distribution. So far all the "super rares" and even satancross seem to be 2 part figures or in the case of the figure in the comercial part of a posed set. I think its likely that these type of figures were cut from the line for a few reasons. (a) the small peices like Ashuraman's head and the center of BHS could have bbeen seen as choking hazards. ( more than likely it have to do with the packing. In order to included the 2 part or posed figures Mattle would have had to include another step in the production just to make sure that the Ashuramans and BHSs (or satancrosses) had their 2nd peice. 233 is an odd number to choose. I think its possible that originaly Mattle planned on including 240 or even 250 figures in the line. I also think its interesting that Satancross, Ashuraman and BHS all came from Kinkeshi series 21. I dont have a clue why some meny satancrosses have shown up in comparison to ashuraman or BHS. But thats what makes them SUPER RARE. I have never seen a M.u.s.c.l.e. BHS so I cant say its legit. I think its more than likely for real tho. I have several kinnikuman, exogini, bootlegs and M.u.s.c.l.e.s in my colection. I can say with out a doubt that the Ashuraman is a m.u.s.c.l.e. figure made by Mattle.
As far as the Goalie figure, I was the one who figured out what this figure actualy was. The truth is out there.


http://members.aol.c...urt7259/mtv.jpg

[doc_moore_j]

You kick arse Jay. I agree with Tortle though, I'd like to see one in muscle packaging. It may very well never happen, and once I get my hands on one, I will have my own theory behind if it is legit or not.

[Tortle]

Assuming BH Sunshine and SH Ashura are in fact MUSCLEs, you're probably right, Midgetron... they were probably discontinued because of choking hazards.

You know, they might be prototypes, too. Maybe Mattel made prototypes of a few figures that never saw production, and those prototypes somehow leaked out. That would explain why there are so few of them. Of course, that has nothing to do with the stories of the sellers, but eh, I was just brainstorming.

I suppose we'll find out for sure eventually. Then again, maybe not... MUSCLE was a flash-in-the-pan popular line from 17 years ago. It's understandable that Mattel would keep good records of a toy line like He-man, which had pretty good staying power, but maybe not something like MUSCLEs. Mattel probably doesn't even have any of the staff that worked on the MUSCLE line anymore.

-Nathan

[EASports]

Did BHS have a removeable part that went in his hole or something? If not, he wouldn't really present a choking hazard...

[el midgetron]

BHS did have a plug that fit in it's hole. I will tell you all right now, Ashuraman is legit. Anyone who wants to stop by and check it out for yourself, please do so. My number is 989-560-4310 That is in the central michigan area. I will be happy to spred the truth.

[arforbes]

If you look at the comercial on the CD I gave out, 13 seconds into it you will see that there is a figure in it that was never part of the 233 (check out URL below). It is a known kinnikuman figure (part of a posed set) but it appears to be produced by Mattle. I have no doubts that some of these early figures that were cut from the line some how made it into distribution.

http://members.aol.c...urt7259/mtv.jpg

I agree that some figures were cut from production because of safety hazards or possibly something we don't know about. Jay is right about the number of M.U.S.C.L.E. figures. 233 is a very odd total number to have.

Jay, I also believe that you stumbled across another Super Rare. That figure in the video I had never noticed before. That's amazing. If the figure was in the commercial, they he was created, prototype or not, he WAS created. This is amazing that Mattel actually caught one of their never before seen Super Rares on video. I wonder how many more there were...

Great discovery!

I am blown away by this!

Another Rare Ashuraman!!!!!

[Adamantiumwulf]

). It is a known kinnikuman figure (part of a posed set) but it appears to be produced by Mattle. I have no doubts that some of these early figures that were cut from the line some how made it into distribution.

Dang I dont think that I would have ever caught that.

Good eye. Did you look at the tape frame by frame?

Depending on when the commercial was filmed they could have been using kinnikuman. They may have made the comercial to show to some test groups of kids to see what they thought of them before makeing them. If thats the case they may not have actully produced any m.u.s.c.l.e. at that time and could have used kinnikuman.

[Tortle]

Well, I was thinking... one of my big arguments against their legitimacy was that there are so few of them. Even if a toy is discontinued, there's still thousands of them made. Satan Cross was probably discontinued, yet there's plenty of him around. But only one or two SH Ashura and BH Sunshine exist. There's basically no way that even a discontinued toy would be that rare. But a RECALLED toy... now that's something else.

If Mattel recalled these figures early in the line, then only very few would get out to the public. It's understandable that Mattel, if it viewed these figures as dangerous to kids, would recall them as opposed to just discontinue production. And that may be why there are so few of them around... only a few were sold before they were recalled.

Just playing Devil's Advocate....

-Nathan

PS - That was a great movie.

[el midgetron]

Actualy, some one else pointed the figure in the vidoe out to me months ago. I cant remember who. It may have been Corey.

[Krangala]

You'd think though, if they did a recall, that there would be SOME documentation somewhere.........

[jkaris]

My take is this, with most new toy lines, they usually have a "TEST MARKET". That is, an area of the country, where they do a small production run, to gauge the popularity of the toy line, to see if it is profitable to mass market them. And with these test markets, they usually have alot of prototype toys, and not usually the final line. This is my theory on where our rare MUSCLE guys come from, like Satan Cross, the swivel head Ashuraman, and also, the cool Black Hole Sunshine.

[Tortle]

with most new toy lines, they usually have a "TEST MARKET"

Really? I've never really noticed toy lines using test markets, or a toy line that has been altered via feedback from a test market. Maybe I just haven't been paying attention... Do you know of any toy lines that have been altered due to test market feedback, and how? Just curious...

-Nathan

[jkaris]

I can't think of any toylines off the top of my head, but "test marketing" a new product is very common with manufacturers and retailers. Rather than mass produce a new line that they are unsure of, they will use some market area as a test market. Say for instance, the northeast, the southwest, etc. And if the product is a good seller, they will then release it to the remainder of the national markets. Alot of times, by the time a product line has gone from test market stage to full blown production, the line will have been altered in one way or another. Different paint colors, mold adjustments, etc. Different materials altogether. And so forth.

Here are a few I got from Google:

http://www.fun1st.com/1990.html Mr. Potato Head test market
http://www.geocities...76/mcd1989.html Mcdonalds toys
http://www.sagelink....a/3 Action.html Star Wars KFC
http://theimaginaryw...com/arch26.html Tick Tock - Ralston

Some more info.....
http://tenonline.org/art/srp/9708.html
http://www.asktheinv...rs.com/toys.htm

Oh ye of little faith.......

[Tortle]

Oh ye of little faith.......

Ha! I hope it didn't sound like I was questioning your toy "authoritah", I was just wondering. I knew about test markets from all those goddammed business classes in college, and I've seen test market products pretty often with fast food and soft drinks, but I just didn't remember test marketed toys. Now that I saw your links, I do remember those Hawaiian Star Wars toys.

Anyway, now back to your normally scheduled MUSCLE debate, already in progress...

-Nathan

[RubzOne]

For some reason I think they are doing this with the Heroes Of Cybertron... which is why we can't find them in any of the larger states. What the hell do they think? Nobody is going to remember the G1 Transformers?

[Krangala]

Actually, it does seem that way.....

I can waltz into my TRU and find any of the new G1 Reissues right off the shelf! (Got Hot Rod just today!)

but at $40 I doubt these things will be "BIG SELLERS", sure they're gonna sell out, no question.....but they're not gonna move except for die-hard G1 Transfans..... especially in my area, which is nothing more than a glorified Podunk hole.........

[M.u.s.c.l.e. God]

Like I've said I'm 100% sure Blackhole Sunshine is a M.u.s.c.l.e.
Also, if anyone is going to be in Pittsburgh let me know and I'll try to show him to ya. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more super rare figures out there. I don't think it's that much of a stretch. I'm sure a good amount of time passed between the toy line starting and when the poster was made.