Super Rare Figures (SC, SHA, BHS, DM, DE), The Official Discussion Thread Options

[Soupie]

The Baseball Card Theory

I have a new theory on the SR’s. It’s based on my experience with baseball cards.

When you buy a box of baseball cards, you’re not guaranteed to get a full set. In fact you tend to see a lot of similar patterns in the cards you get. This sounds a lot like what everyone who has had a “box” of MUSCLE’s.

So let’s imagine each metropolitan area gets approximately the same mix. So something that is rare in one town is in abundance in another town.

Now we also have to assume that Mattel was going to release the 300~400 figures. Perhaps these were made in the first few waves of production. And let’s even assume that the SR’s are chase figures (maybe 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000). Now this should still have a fairly significant number of figures, even if there were only 10~12 waves of figures produced before the line was reduced. But these figures ended up in the same spots.

Now I don’t know about you, but almost everyone near my age that I talk to about MUSCLE says they either destroyed them or threw them away. So perhaps most of these figures have been destroyed or lost, because they were the commons in some areas.

A have a couple issues with this theory:

1) If I understand you correctly, and certain chase MUSCLEs were released in specific locations, how did this individual manage to get so many of them? Arfrobes has a wopping two BHSs.

Of course, arforbes is searching for SRs post-production. Even so, I have a hard time imagining an 80's TGB driving around the US looking for MUSCLE chase figures, managing to find 11!

(Not to mention the seller said he got them from a friend and knows nothing about them.)



2) If they were chase figures released here in America, and the seller collected all of them here, why take them/send them to Japan to sell in a market that -- as jkaris said -- does not care for American MUSCLEs?

3) If the seller got the figures from American Mattel packages released here in the US, he must realize that selling them on eBay would be smarter.

4) Perhaps there was a fluke, and all the chase figures were put in one package and this guy got it. Unlikely.



No, instead I say:

1) The Eleven are prototypes of kinnikuman figures made in a harder plastic. This explains:

• Why there are non-MUSCLE sculpts
• Why they are in Japan (Bandai factory)
• Why there are 11 together

As to why they are from Parts 22, 24, and 28: these were Pink MUSCLEs from the second wave that Bandai/Mattel ultimately scraped in favor of Colored MUSCLEs.

This post has been edited by Soupie: Jan 21 2006, 08:37 AM

[Kevin Mayle]

As far as this whole chase figure thing is concerned. I have every issue of Toyfare and was reading it before issue one, back when it was part of Wizard magazine, and as far as I can tell, "Chase Figures" are a relatively new concept. At least in America. In fact I don't seem to recall the term even being used before the Marvel Legends line. The whole idea of making certain figures rarer than others on purpose for the collector market didn't really start till the mid nineties. I could be wrong.

[Beligerant1]

Numquam ponendo est pluritas sine necessitate

Occam's Razor

The simplest theory is that they are prototypes, its also the one that makes the most sense, given there are eleven non-muscle sculpts in one package and they were located in japan. This guy through someone linked with mattel/bandai got his hands on this package and now Jonny has it. You could speculate forever why they decided not to mass produce these sculpts, but the bottom line is that they are prototypes, possibly the only ones in existence.

By the way, I'm not including SHA, BHS, DE, or DM in the above explanation, I have no idea how those guys got into 4-packs over here, although I suspect they were part of an early test market, or prototype packages that got out, or something like that.

This post has been edited by Beligerant1: Jan 21 2006, 10:31 AM

[Personality #9]

The Baseball Card Theory

When you buy a box of baseball cards, you’re not guaranteed to get a full set. In fact you tend to see a lot of similar patterns in the cards you get. This sounds a lot like what everyone who has had a “box” of MUSCLE’s...

I understand your "Baseball Card Theory" all too well Veers. When I was a kid I spend more money than I ever should have on baseball cards trying to find my favorite players and so forth only to have purchased two boxes to get like 50 or 60 copies of some lame players.


That being said, I would doubt the the M.U.S.C.L.E. series would have been packaged like that in some way. It just seems to me that the Super Rares are a bit too rare for this to be a correct theory (esspecially if you include Jkaris' recent find).

Maybe you're right, and if you are that would probably mean the the Super Rares aren't quite as rare as people here seem to think right now.

Only time will tell though, keep searchin' Arforbes!

[Soupie]

Now that I feel confident that the discovery of the Eleven is not a hoax perpetrated by jkaris, i.e., they are not TGB customs or products of Photoshop, I also feel comfortable saying they are not bootlegs at all.

Here's why:

1) Their quality: They look and, more importantly, feel exactly like MUSCLEs. (Or so I'm told.) This is very unlike most bootlegs, even other high quality MUSCLE-like bootlegs.

2) If, in fact, they were high quality bootlegs, there would be many, many more of them like Exogini and Future Man. Why bootleg such a small quantity... that look exactly like the real thing? Pointless.

While this certainly doesn't rule out the bootleg possibility altogther, I think it is safe to believe they are legit Bandai figures.

With that in mind, I want to take another look at the MUSCLE Suoer Rares:

We have the following Non-Poster MUSCLEs:

Part 15

Drunken Master
Dark Emperor

Part 21

Spinning Head Ashuraman
Black Hole Sunshine

Part 22

Terryman with Hat and Cape
Warsman with Spikes
Brocken Jr.
Ramen Man with Dragon
Satan Cross with hole (actually Samson Trainer)
Satan Cross (the guy who sticks his head IN the hole)

Part 24
2-piece Satan Cross (was not attached on a sprue)
Robin Mask

From Part 28
Prism Man
Mysterious Partner
Buffaloman (with bazooka?)

A few notes:

1) The Eleven differ from the others in that they were found in Japan
2) The Eleven introduce another multi-part figure
3) The Eleven share the property of being Flesh colored with the other SRs
4) The Eleven come from parts produced after parts 1-21 from which the 233 originate.
5) Interestingly, like many of the other SRs, the Eleven were found with other regular MUSCLEs.

[Soupie]

Continued...

6) Like the other SRs (with the exception of one SHA) the Eleven all came from one place. (The other SRs all came from the North East.)

7) Interestingly, the Eleven were found in regular MUSCLE packaging.

So what might this all mean?

I think it means that all our Super Rares:

1) Came from the Bandai factory
2) In regular packaging
3) with other regular Flesh colored MUSCLEs
4) as Prototypes

[General Veers]

Perhaps the “chase” figures weren’t exactly intentional. Again, it could have happened simply based on production.

And prototypes still just doesn’t make sense to me. Prototypes don’t turn up in packaging. And they wouldn’t make multiple copies of the same figure (SHA, BHS, SC). Plus prototypes are usually different is some fairly major way - missing stamps, odd coloring, etc. I don’t think they would make completely “new” sculpts as prototypes. And before the 11 all the SR’s had come from the US and from people who believed they had bought them in packs.

The problem I’ve been having lately is the success MUSCLE had its first year and the complete lack of new product the second year. Mattel’s bread and butter, at the time, was He-Man. MUSCLE out sold He-Man in 1986. Mattel had to see these large sales all year. But instead of adding to the product line, like they did with He-Man, they just added color to existing figures. Then the product is cancelled – probably as part of Mattel’s slimming down of brands and products.

Did Mattel know that this was coming? Did the partnership with Bandai reduce the profitability of MUSCLE?

So maybe as Mattel is doing great, late ’85-early ’86, Mattel plans on releasing 400 figures and production starts. But early into production they think, “What kid is going to buy 400 figures?” Instead of destroying any product it (the SR’s) are released. MUSCLE is a success, but things are getting worse at Mattel. Colors are the cheapest option to “innovate” the line.

I don’t know.

[jkaris]

Did Mattel know that this was coming? Did the partnership with Bandai reduce the profitability of MUSCLE?

So maybe as Mattel is doing great, late ’85-early ’86, Mattel plans on releasing 400 figures and production starts. But early into production they think, “What kid is going to buy 400 figures?” Instead of destroying any product it (the SR’s) are released. MUSCLE is a success, but things are getting worse at Mattel. Colors are the cheapest option to “innovate” the line.

That is actually very plausible. And say that most of these figures were some sort of salesman samples or test shots? All the markings would be the same, since the molds were already extablished and the plastic would have been the same since the line was already in production. Ths actually makes more sense, being that Part 28 was released in 1986 for the kinkeshi line. The molds may not have been created in time for the first wave of MUSCLEs.
Could be....

[Soupie]

That is actually very plausible.

You guys seem to be saying two different things, though.

Yes, a lot of toy line prototypes are a different color, but think about MUSCLEs: They are non-articulated and not painted. A prototype could very well look just like a regular MUSCLE.

As for the presence of trademarks, if they used actual Kinkeshi molds, or copies of those molds for MUSCLE plastic, either way the trademark would already be there, and thus it would show up on a MUSCLE prototype.

Veers seems to be saying they actually began mass production of 400 MUSCLEs and stopped, while jkaris seems to be saying they made the prototypes of all 400 MUSCLEs and then decided not to go ahead with mass production.

Either way, it's the same idea. I was thinking Bandai/Mattel made the 233 MUSCLEs, and then made prototypes of the next ones to be released (the Eleven) but opted to go with Colored MUSCLEs instead.

Perhaps we shouldn't lump SHA, BHS, DM, and DE togther with the Eleven.

One question I have is how Mattel/Bandai reached the arbitrary number of 233 MUSCLE sculpts to release?

233 Regular
234 With SC
236 With ring figures
238 With SHA and BHS
240 With DM and DE
251 (Dammit, why not 250) with the Eleven

[General Veers]

I think Johnny and I agree, but have come to different conclusions.

Actually I was just thinking about the number of figures. In every publication, that I have come across from the mid-eighties, it mentions MUSCLE with either “over 200 figures” or “233 figures.”

If they were going to make 400, then those planes were quickly abandoned. Because their official press releases were in the 200 figure neighborhood. And if the official figure count was going to be over 250, then I would expect the statement to say something like “almost 300 figures.”

I also don’t think the SR’s should be broken into two groups. They’re all MUSCLEs, but their origins could be different.

[Tortle]

So maybe as Mattel is doing great, late ’85-early ’86, Mattel plans on releasing 400 figures and production starts. But early into production they think, “What kid is going to buy 400 figures?” Instead of destroying any product it (the SR’s) are released. MUSCLE is a success, but things are getting worse at Mattel. Colors are the cheapest option to “innovate” the line.

This actually seems like the most likely scenario. Not that the other options aren't possible, but that this theory seems more probable. This would apply to Satan Cross as well.

I wouldn't think that salesman samples and prototypes would make it into final production packaging. There might be examples of this happening (Vlix maybe?) but those examples are very rare, and again, I'm looking for the most probable theory.

Anyway, I feel that Veers' theory fits the facts that we absolutely know pretty well:

1) Super-Rares and Satan Cross were only made in flesh plastic. So, they were probably made before the colored figures.
2) As stated previously, the number quoted by Mattel for the total number of MUSCLEs was in the 200s.
3) The poster prototype on the back of 28-packs has about 420 slots for figures. This prototype was scrapped in favor of a poster with only 233 figures. None of the Super-Rares are shown on the poster.

Anyway, I suppose we'll never really know, but I know one thing: my favored theory of product recall that I tried to champion a few years ago is pretty much busted.

[Soupie]

Bandai wouldn't sacrifice the molds, the distributing rights, the factories, and the Man power to help Mattel push later series or current series that Bandai was already marketing and producing.  So initially Mattel was sure that they would be releasing about 400 figures, but then Bandai says "Well!  Due to the problem with manufacturing costs, it would be too difficult for us to Market our current lines at the same time as yours!  Not to mention it would cut in on our initial profits!"

So maybe as Mattel is doing great, late ’85-early ’86, Mattel plans on releasing 400 figures and production starts. But early into production they think, “What kid is going to buy 400 figures?” Instead of destroying any product it (the SR’s) are released. MUSCLE is a success, but things are getting worse at Mattel. Colors are the cheapest option to “innovate” the line.

Though we may never know the details of how and why, it does seem like Mattel considered the possibility of making more than 233 sculpts of MUSCLEs. So much so, as tortle pointed out, that an actual picture of a poster showing 400+ was sold in stores.

One thing to keep in mind is the fact that on average, starting with Part 1 and continuing through Part 21, one to two Kinnikuman were chosen not to be made into MUSCLEs.

So, at some point in time either Mattel or Bandai said: "Some of the Kinnikuman will not be made into MUSCLEs."

Two facts that I think are important are that all the SRs are flesh and they come from parts 15 and above.

Jkaris says that Part 28 was produced in '86. This would have been the same time that Bandai was potentially using "old" kinnikuman molds to produce MUSCLEs for Mattel.

Could Bandai make a batch of Kinkeshi and then a batch of MUSCLEs, or was there a conflict? Was there a conflict with all parts after 21? So rather than a "marketing" conflict, it was a production conflict.

Bandai says: "Look, we make the Kinkeshi, then we make the MUSCLEs." Mattel says: "Screw it, just use the available molds to make colored MUSCLEs."

However, like URS was saying, some factories were a little more effecient and thus had made MUSCLEs from parts beyond 21. Bandai says: "Alright, good job, ship them out, but don't bother to make any more."

A small few make it over to the US. (Or onto Yahoo! Japan.)



(This is all basically what URS said, I know, I'm just kind of re-phrasing it.)

This post has been edited by Soupie: Jan 23 2006, 02:52 PM

[Kevin Mayle]

251 (Dammit, why not 250) with the Eleven

Actually it is 250 (kinkeshi sculpts) and 1 American original (ring Buffaloman).

This post has been edited by kevinmayle: Jan 23 2006, 02:53 PM

[Soupie]

Okay, here is slight, but important, variation on the Broken Mold Theory talked about in this thread.

Let's assume that Bandai has at least two (Y and X) factories pumping out Kinkeshi and MUSCLEs.

They use old kinkeshi molds to make the MUSCLEs. One day, at factory Y, a mold from Part 21 breaks. Rather than lose profit, the workers are told to choose another mold and begin using it to meet the figure quantity demand. The previously un-used mold they choose is none other than Satan Cross.

Over at factory X, they have a similar problem, but it is a mold from Part 15 that breaks down.

Since Bandai no longer needs these broken molds for Kinkeshi, they don't bother making a new mold.

-----

Now, when production moves on to colored MUSCLEs, rather than use the extra molds, factory X and Y simply fail to make certain MUSCLEs in certain colors.

Just more meaningless speculation, especially the last part, but I just thought I'd throw that out there. By the way, I don't think this theory would apply to the Eleven.

[jkaris]

Good point, but if they pulled a mold to replace a broken one, then you would have multiples of the rare figure (like SC), but also you would have a SC in colors too.

[Universal Ruler ...]

Speculation! Maybe the reason they used the SC mold was because half of it was damaged while being used for kinkeshi. The half damaged just happens to be the back legs. Instead of tossing it out, they just give it to the muscle factory since the other part is good, and no Americans will be any the wiser. This makes some sense, because, correct me if I'm wrong, the kinkeshi Satan Cross figure is just as uncommon to come by as it is in Muscle plastic. Does that sound about right? Also when they went to make colored figs they probably seen the broken SC mold and just decided not to use a broken mold. Especially if the molds were sent to a different factory for making colored figs.

This post has been edited by Universal Ruler Supreme: Jan 24 2006, 11:28 AM

[gilgar]

Why would a Japanese seller have an American Mattel 28 pack full of MUSCLE figures, including Non-MUSCLE sculpt MUSCLEs, and one even consisting of multiple parts?

The answer is easy: They are prototypes.

Very cool find. They could easily be prototypes, bootlegs, one offs, employee gifts or test pieces.

It could have even been an employee from the Bandai factory who was able to get his hands on some MUSCLE material or knew enough to make an exact replica. Hell, they could have been a secret santa or birthday gift of someone's favorite scupts made in MUSCLE plastic for durability or to be different.

TGB's customs are flawless with the trademarks and all, much better than any boots out there. If TGB had real MUSCLE plastic or made some plastic indistinguishable from MUSCLE plastic then he could easily make some SR's that no one could distinguish from legit ones-this could have easily happened with someone in Japan too.

I'm sure there are people in Japan just as skilled as TGB or even moreso (no slight intended) that could have made the 11 plus the other 17 and gave them to a friend as a gift. They were put into a 28-pack either by the maker or someone else along the way for display/storage purposes over the years.

Like Hotwheels, Bandai could have made a very limited run of these 28 packs for a few key employees. Hot Wheels has done this with Christmas cars and other very limited issues.

You can't really say the 11 were found in the package because 28-packs are not sealed in any real way. Anyone could open them and put in whatever figures they please. 4 and 10 packs could also skillfully be opened, altered and carefully resealed however a very close inspection would detect the tampering unlike with the 28-pack

This post has been edited by gilgar: Jan 26 2006, 09:57 PM

[Kevin Mayle]

Posted: Nov 15 2005, 03:00 PM
This is a letter in Toyfare #30.
Posted: Nov 15 2005, 03:01 PM
Here is a letter from Toyfare #34.
Posted: Nov 15 2005, 03:02 PM
Here is the first page of the MUSCLE review in Toyfare #34.
Posted: Nov 15 2005, 03:09 PM
Here's the second page.
Posted: Nov 15 2005, 03:10 PM
And this is from Toyfare #99.

And in continuation, here is the latest from Toyfare #104

[jkaris]

Nice post! Thanks for archiving these Kevin.

On a related note, I have updated the Super Rares FAQ. Alex and Mischa have brokered a deal (with me as the middle man) for the Warsman figure. And I do believe we have a new SR record.

[Universal Ruler ...]

I like the guys last sentence in the toyfare 104 review.

[Soupie]

Recently, Arforbes discovered a unique Kinnikuman kinkeshi item. It was a group of 16 (8 unique sculpts plus 8 doubles) kinnikuman figures connected together by strings of plastic -- leftover plastic from the molding process.

The eight figures all belong to the same kinnikuman part. This discovery seems to indicate that the kinnikuman were molded together in group molds. URS called these group molds, trees.

Since each kinnikuman part is made up of varying amounts of figures, but typically more than 8, it can be assumed that each kinnikuman part consists of 2+ trees.

One can assume that since Bandai also produced the American MUSCLE figures, they used a similar molding process. However, the American MUSCLEs are not divided into parts. Furthermore, not all kinnikuman figures were made into MUSCLEs. We assume that not all kinnikuman figures were made into MUSCLEs for three reasons:

1) Not all kinnikuman figures are listed on the offical MUSCLE poster
2) Not all kinnikuman figures have been found in MUSCLE plastic
3) Some kinnikuman were produced by Bandai after the MUSCLE toyline was finished

However, several non-poster kinnikuman sculpts have been found found in MUSCLE plastic. They share two things in common:

1) They have all been found in flesh
2) There are at least 1-2 other non-poster kinnikuman that have been found from their kinnikuman part

We also know that Bandai produced colored MUSCLE figures. They were produced in 8 additional colors besides Flesh (and five were made in a Grape color).

We now know that each tree within each kinnikuman part has a unique color pattern. Some trees were not made in 1 of the 8 additional colors, some trees were not made in 2-3 of the additional colors.

No tree has been found to be produced in all 8 colors.

Furthermore, some trees were made in one color way more than they were made in other colors. For example, X tree may have been made in Green and Magenta, but finding the tree in Green is much easier than finding it in Magenta. The assumption is that there were more Green figures produced.

Though at this point the colors a tree was or wasn't made in appears to be random, at the same time the system seems to be pretty systematic.

In light of this new information, Ihave reached several conclusions:

1) No MUSCLE will be found in all 8 colors

2) It is possible to determine how many color variations there are, i.e., it is possible to attain a complete colored MUSCLE set and know that it is complete.

3) The SR MUSCLEs found in Flesh are factory creations that were either mistakes or purposefully produced figures that were later cancelled after final producation decisions had been made or corrected.

4) It is impossible to know how many other SR figures may exist, but it is likely that there are more.

5) Due to the systematic way the colored MUSCLEs were produced and the fact that they were produced at the end of the line after all decisions had likely been finalized -- no non-poster kinnikuman sculpts will ever be found color.

[Satan+]

Hi all ! Good news : my Super Rares arrived last week !
The former Alex´s BHS ( his first one ) and 2-pieces Satan Cross from John´s Magnificent 11 . Of course , both are 100% MUSCLES !
But I would like to ask you something about terminology...
1) as SHA and BHS were poped up in doubles in US market , maybe both are THE REAL AMERICAN MUSCLES . So , the flesh American collection is composed by 233 figs from poster +2 ring figs + SC + SHA + BHS . Of course I don´t know why ( infact , this is the reason of this topic ) but it is fact ! Remember SC , SHA and BHS are from the same Japanese part ...
2) the others 13 figs dicovered are uniques ( DM , DE and Magnificent 11 ) . They don´t have conterparts ! So , we should say they are ULTRA RARES and no Super Rares ( infact , only SHA and BHS are SR´s ) .
Of course there are other important things in the world , like wars and hungry people , but as I like to participate of this forum , I thought it´s interesting ...
What do you think ?
Thanks Jon and reards for every MUSCLE collector .
Ricardo .

[jkaris]

Looks like this could be the next one:
http://www.littlerubberguys.com/forums/ind...showtopic=10110
Part 21 Dr. Bombay

[Soupie]

Holy shizznit, I just realized that the Eleven come from parts 22, 24, and 28.

I've always considered them to be "different" simply because they were found all together (unlike the other Non-Poster MUSCLEs) and because they were found in Japan (unlike the other Non-Poster MUSCLEs).

However, idiot me, I just remembered the regular MUSCLE line stopped at Part 21!

To me, that fact alone seperates the Eleven from the other Non-Poster MUSCLEs that we have found.

The other Non-Poster MUSCLEs (including the newest) come from parts 15 and 21.

This info from Jkaris is of great interest as well:

I just checked my mini-books. Parts 15-26 are all dated 1985. So they would have been in production in the same yer that flesh MUSCLEs were run, assuming that MUSCLEs were done in '85.

Hm, all Non-Poster MUSCLEs discovered so far come from parts 15 and up... Parts 15 and up made in 1985.

Although full production may not have begun in 1985, it's conceivable that MUSCLEs were also made in 1985.

My thinking is that as kinkeshi were being made at the same time and entire parts were being used, it makes sense that the entire parts of 15-21 may have been used to make MUSCLEs at one point.

For similar reasons as parts 1-14, eventually certain sculpts were not used.

However, it is also important to note that 3 of the Eleven are from part 28, which, according to jkaris, was made in 1987. (Which throws a monkey wrench in the 15-26 theory... although, I think, MUSCLEs were still being made in 1987... although in color...)

[Universal Ruler ...]

Have you ever accidently found a muscle figure in any of the huge lots of keshis you have purchased from Japan Jon?

[jkaris]

Have you ever accidently found a muscle figure in any of the huge lots of keshis you have purchased from Japan Jon?

Yep, twice. Twice in that many lots isn't very much. One of them had a few colored MUSCLEs (which by MDB stats, were medium in rarity).

[Soupie]

I just reread this thread. I contradict myself at least 20 times in it.

At one point I say the 28-pack poster with 400+ figures is meaningless, at another I point to it as incredibly meaningful.

Also, I made a huge deal about the Eleven being from parts beyond 21, and even speculated about what it might mean, and then just today I say that "I just realized" that they were from parts beyond 21.



In any case, several posts back, KM quotes from a post of Veers saying that it is very likely that Flesh MUSCLEs were made in 1985.

Also, in his same post, he quotes Jkaris two years later saying that part 28 was made in 1986 -- not 1987.

So, the Non-Poster, Parts 15 and 21 MUSCLEs that have been found were likely made at the same time Kinnikuman Parts 15 and 21 were being made.

Also, for what it's worth, I still believe the Eleven were protos for a 2nd flesh wave that was nixed in favor of colored MUSCLEs.

[Personality #9]

This post has been edited by Artimus Prime: Apr 13 2006, 01:45 AM

[Universal Ruler ...]

It's possible that they used the same factory to make muscles and Kinkeshi. And also more than likely that they were making Parts 15 through 21 within the release year of muscles.

So it wouldn't be too far fetched to think that because they used the same factory, and because on occasion they may have had to switch a mold back and fourth such as Parts 15 through 21's trees, that there would be the occasional packaging mistake, as well as a forgetful employee who would forget to plug up the non muscle figures again after using the mold for kinkeshi.

This assumption would make a little sense about the plugs, because after the flesh series they started making colored figures, and no doubt they were no longer producing Parts 15 to 21 as kinkeshi. Thus an employee wouldn't have to remove the plugs again for molding Keshi's. This would help explain the lack of Super Rares being found in color. With this new Super Rare, it is safe to assume that we will eventually find each non muscle sculpt made in muscle plastic.

[Soupie]

With this new Super Rare, it is safe to assume that we will eventually find each non muscle sculpt made in muscle plastic.

I do like this theory, but I think it only predicts all Non-Poster sculpts from parts 15-21 being made, not 1-21.

The reason being that only parts 15-21 seem to have overlapped in production use for Kinkeshi and MUSCLE.

Another way of looking at it is like this:

Part 1-14 molds when used to produce flesh MUSCLEs, were used only to produce flesh MUSCLEs = No Non-Poster MUSCLEs from parts 1-14.

Part 1-21 molds when used to produce colored MUSCLEs, were used only to produce colored MUSCLEs = No Non-Poster MUSCLEs made in color from parts 1-21.

Part 15-21 molds when used to produce flesh MUSCLEs and Kinkeshi = Non-Poster MUSCLEs from parts 15-21.

[Universal Ruler ...]

With this new Super Rare, it is safe to assume that we will eventually find each non muscle sculpt made in muscle plastic.

I do like this theory, but I think it only predicts all Non-Poster sculpts from parts 15-21 being made, not 1-21.

Yeah....Oops. I knew I would mess that up. I didn't say it right, but I think that's what I meant. We should find all non muscle sculpts from parts 15-21 only. Or else I contradict what I say here.

no doubt they were no longer producing Parts 15 to 21 as kinkeshi. Thus an employee wouldn't have to remove the plugs again for molding Keshi's. This would help explain the lack of Super Rares being found in color.

Thanks for catching that Soups.



:had to cover his own arse:

[arforbes]

Here's my two cents...

As far as the possibility of plugs is concerned, I don't think they ever bothered pluggin the molds. That would be way too time consuming and if you look at the tree, you can see the excess plastic that holds the figures together that was obviously discarded by the factories. Why would they take the time to plug a tiny portion of the molds to prevent certain figures from being sculpted. I don't think this ever happened. Thee tree is made up of more plastic than a few figures combined. I believe the figures that did not belong were discarded. It must have cost the factory like a fraction of a cent in extra plastic to fill these molds right? So the figures were made, and then removed and discarded. Some mistakes occured and some non-muscle sculpts got out, or were simply missed by the workers/machines. Who knows. Of course we can argue about why would the factory take the time to sort these figures? Everything is done on assembly lines, I am sure they could have programmed the machines to remove which figures by locations on the trees...mistakes are bound to occur. A discarded Super Rare falls into the sale bin of muscles and gets mixed in by accident somehow. Possibly falls off a conveyor belt into the wrong batch. This would explain their small numbers, they were mistakes that slipped by and show up every so often in a Muscle package. They had to be released in some sort of packaging, we have just never seen one in a package. The odds of finding one in pacakaging because of their small numbers are slim.

[jkaris]

I agree with Alex on this one. It makes sense that it would be more cost effective to just have the computer pull the non-muscle figures and recycle the plastic.

[Soupie]

So the figures were made, and then removed and discarded. Some mistakes occured and some non-muscle sculpts got out, or were simply missed by the workers/machines.

If this is the case, we would expect to find Non-MUSCLE sculpts from parts 1-21 and in color.

[arforbes]

So the figures were made, and then removed and discarded.  Some mistakes occured and some non-muscle sculpts got out, or were simply missed by the workers/machines.

If this is the case, we would expect to find Non-MUSCLE sculpts from parts 1-21 and in color.

That is correct, I don't see why we have not yet...maybe they are out there waiting to be discovered. Only time will tell. Or maybe by the time they produced colors they found a more effective means of producing only the figures needed for the Muscle line, since the toyline was dying at the time, maybe they found a way to not waste so much? Now I am contradicting myself.

[jkaris]

If this is the case, we would expect to find Non-MUSCLE sculpts from parts 1-21 and in color.

Think about it. Out of literally MILLIONS, we have found about 20 super rares. 11 of which are more than lilkely a salesman sample. Even using the ratio of MUSCLEs remaining in circulation, that is DAMN good quality control.

While there may have been colored SR MUSCLEs made by accident, the chances that there are any that made it through the QC process is very slim, especially since the ratio of fleshies to colors is so high. We may yet find a colored SR, but I am not holding my breath.

[jkaris]

Matter of fact, if Alex's theory IS correct, then it would be a good assumption, that all super rares were made in the very first run, before someone realized that the machine was not discarding the non-MUSCLE licensed figures, and reprogrammed it. That in itself would eliminate any chance of a colored SR.

However, as I am convinced that my find of 11 were a salesman sample, there may be a colored set out there somewhere too.

Who knows. I wonder if Veers has had any luck with Mattel recently.

[Universal Ruler ...]

I don't even think your 11 were a salesman sample. Since they were all after Part 21 I think they were made by an employee who didn't have anything better to do. They no doubt still had some unused muscle plastic laying around and they also had access to the newer Kinnikuman sculpts.

Also I agree with Jon that the super rares were made in the very VERY first run of muscles. It's quite possible that, just like Fistful of Power, they released a small test run to a select number of wholesale chains within the country before releasing them in full, and they didn't exclude any figures in this run.

I know someone asked this before somewhere, but does any of the unopened Satan Cross 4 packs have the poster offer on the back?

And another point. If they didn't plug up the unwanted sculpts, then why did they even exclude the non muscle sculpts? Remember my Production "Efficiency" theories? It would take up manpower and time to cull out unwanted sculpts. I doubt they had a machine do this. Plugging up the molds wouldn't take long at all and would have been quick. But then again, the people on the line probably knew which figures to pull off the runners and which ones not to, so it may not have been a big deal.

Also there were only like 48 non-muscle sculpts anyway right? That would have just knocked up the set count to about 280. The reason I think plugs were used was because if they weren't we would see other Super Rares just as common as SC. I think someone lost his plug for a while or something. In fact it could have slipped into his mold and got stuck in his back leg runner, and that's why he didn't come with them.

[General Veers]

Who knows. I wonder if Veers has had any luck with Mattel recently.

I assure you that Mattel in no longer a resource. Any records older than 5~7 years are destroyed, plus they weren’t the manufacturer. And Bandai only apologizes that Ultimate MUSCLE isn’t around anymore. They only hope would be with the manufactures in Asia, specifically employees that produced MUSCLE – which I don’t see happening anytime soon.

[TheOrgg]

In fact it could have slipped into his mold and got stuck in his back leg runner, and that's why he didn't come with them.

Does S.C. have markings where his leg runner should be?

[arforbes]

In fact it could have slipped into his mold and got stuck in his back leg runner, and that's why he didn't come with them.

Does S.C. have markings where his leg runner should be?

No, I don't believe so.

[Soupie]

Re-Issues

This set was re-issued late 90's early 2000's.

Bandai seems to have chosen 5 trees from four parts. Specifically:

Part 6 Tree 1
Part 7 Tree 4
Part 8 Trees 1 & 3
Part 14 Tree 2

What's interesting is that each of the parts these trees were taken from has 2+ Non-MUSCLE sculpts. However, just as with the MUSCLE line, Non-MUSCLE sculpts do not appear.

How many re-issued sets were there? Are there any Non-MUSCLE sculpts in those sets?

If it turns out that both MUSCLE and the Re-issues are missing the same sculpts, what might that tell us?

I'd be very interested to know if the MUSCLE SC sculpt was re-issued.

[Soupie]

Well, it looks as if there were Non-MUSCLE sculpts from parts 1-21 that were Re-issued in 1998.

For instance, look here on Tortle's site at a painted Re-issue of a Geronimo sculpt. (Not to mention the Brocken sculpt. That Kinnikuman sculpt comes from the 91-1 Kinkeshi part.)

This sculpt is from Part 13 and was not made into a MUSCLE.

So what does this tell us? Well, it tells us the reason why this figure was not made into a MUSCLE in 1985-87 doesn't have anything to do with the sculpt being broken.

Is this true of the other Non-MUSCLE sculpts? (In other words, were their molds fine, and just not used?)

This post has been edited by Soupie: Apr 24 2006, 06:32 PM

[Soupie]

Does S.C. have markings where his leg runner should be?

I checked my MUSCLE Satan Cross, and I can't find a spot were his legs may have been attached.

I decided to check Naochin's site to see where they were attached on the Kinkeshi version.

Part 21

Is it possible that SC's legs had a mold of their own? If that is the case, it would be very simple for Bandai to not include them -- like other Non-MUSCLE sculpts -- when making the MUSCLE version.

[General Veers]

Based on the size of the legs, it’s not unreasonable to think it was a separate mold. Most other “two-piecers” have small second pieces – easily fitting within the mold.

[TheOrgg]

Arn't there Kenkeshi SCs with the back legs attached on a little bit of flash to its leg?

[Soupie]

Yes.

The SC used by TGB for the SR Trilogy, and the one in the picture attached below.

However, I've yet to find a pic of the one from part 21.

Attached File(s)

 SCLEGS.jpg ( 33.05K ) Number of downloads: 18

 

[Universal Ruler ...]

Well, my Satan Cross has possibly 4 spots that his legs may have been able to attach to. He has 2 spots between his feet, 1 spot on his spike on his helmet, and possibly one in the bevel of his sword(although I think this is just excess). I think the two feet ones are where he was attached to the tree. So I'm thinking his spike maybe. Although it is possible that the legs were infact not attached to him. It's not unlikely, but also it is.

[Soupie]

Mine also has the marks on his inner ankles, and I also think this may be where he was attached to the tree.

Mine also has a little extra on his spike, but it does not look like a place were legs were attached. Besides, that would be an odd spot. I see no markings on his sword.

Furthermore, the Part 21 Satan Cross TGB custom I have came with the rear legs. I've looked over the custom rear legs thoroughly and found no obvious attachment spots. (Yes, they could have been lost in the TGB's mold making process. However, I think they would appear.)

I think someone owning a Kinkeshi or MUSCLE SHA or BHS could speak to whether the attachment spots are visible. (Arforbes already said above he doesn't think there is a mark where legs were attached.)

Or, maybe someone has seen a Kinkeshi part 21 Satan Cross with legs attached.

This post has been edited by Soupie: Apr 22 2006, 05:46 AM

[Soupie]

Shortly after making the above post, I was scanning Yahoo Japan for a part 21 SC with legs attached. I came across an image of part 23 King 100t with a millstone attached to the elbow of his right arm. I realized that I have a King 100t without his millstone.

I got him out and looked him over. There was no mark on his right elbow. So I thought, maybe we won't find a mark on SC. However, I noticed a clearly visible little mark on his left forearm that I would expect the mark of a removed attachment to look like.

I decided to check Naochin's site. Sure enough, some King 100t's came with the millstone attached to his left forearm.



So, I'm led to believe that a similar mark should easily be found on part 21 Satan Cross if indeed his legs were attached in a similar fashion. (A mark that appears to be missing, at least from MUSCLE versions.)

I will share a picture of the mark on King 100t's forearm to show what it looks like and how noticable it is.

This post has been edited by Soupie: Apr 22 2006, 07:44 AM