385 replies to this topic

[Soupie]

The Baseball Card Theory

I have a new theory on the SR’s. It’s based on my experience with baseball cards.

When you buy a box of baseball cards, you’re not guaranteed to get a full set. In fact you tend to see a lot of similar patterns in the cards you get. This sounds a lot like what everyone who has had a “box” of MUSCLE’s.

So let’s imagine each metropolitan area gets approximately the same mix. So something that is rare in one town is in abundance in another town.

Now we also have to assume that Mattel was going to release the 300~400 figures. Perhaps these were made in the first few waves of production. And let’s even assume that the SR’s are chase figures (maybe 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000). Now this should still have a fairly significant number of figures, even if there were only 10~12 waves of figures produced before the line was reduced. But these figures ended up in the same spots.

Now I don’t know about you, but almost everyone near my age that I talk to about MUSCLE says they either destroyed them or threw them away. So perhaps most of these figures have been destroyed or lost, because they were the commons in some areas.

A have a couple issues with this theory:

1) If I understand you correctly, and certain chase MUSCLEs were released in specific locations, how did this individual manage to get so many of them? Arfrobes has a wopping two BHSs.

Of course, arforbes is searching for SRs post-production. Even so, I have a hard time imagining an 80's TGB driving around the US looking for MUSCLE chase figures, managing to find 11!

(Not to mention the seller said he got them from a friend and knows nothing about them.)



2) If they were chase figures released here in America, and the seller collected all of them here, why take them/send them to Japan to sell in a market that -- as jkaris said -- does not care for American MUSCLEs?

3) If the seller got the figures from American Mattel packages released here in the US, he must realize that selling them on eBay would be smarter.

4) Perhaps there was a fluke, and all the chase figures were put in one package and this guy got it. Unlikely.



No, instead I say:

1) The Eleven are prototypes of kinnikuman figures made in a harder plastic. This explains:

• Why there are non-MUSCLE sculpts
• Why they are in Japan (Bandai factory)
• Why there are 11 together

As to why they are from Parts 22, 24, and 28: these were Pink MUSCLEs from the second wave that Bandai/Mattel ultimately scraped in favor of Colored MUSCLEs.

Edited by Soupie, 21 January 2006 - 08:37 AM.

[Kevin Mayle]

As far as this whole chase figure thing is concerned. I have every issue of Toyfare and was reading it before issue one, back when it was part of Wizard magazine, and as far as I can tell, "Chase Figures" are a relatively new concept. At least in America. In fact I don't seem to recall the term even being used before the Marvel Legends line. The whole idea of making certain figures rarer than others on purpose for the collector market didn't really start till the mid nineties. I could be wrong.

[Beligerant1]

Numquam ponendo est pluritas sine necessitate

Occam's Razor

The simplest theory is that they are prototypes, its also the one that makes the most sense, given there are eleven non-muscle sculpts in one package and they were located in japan. This guy through someone linked with mattel/bandai got his hands on this package and now Jonny has it. You could speculate forever why they decided not to mass produce these sculpts, but the bottom line is that they are prototypes, possibly the only ones in existence.

By the way, I'm not including SHA, BHS, DE, or DM in the above explanation, I have no idea how those guys got into 4-packs over here, although I suspect they were part of an early test market, or prototype packages that got out, or something like that.

Edited by Beligerant1, 21 January 2006 - 10:31 AM.

[Personality #9]

The Baseball Card Theory

When you buy a box of baseball cards, you’re not guaranteed to get a full set. In fact you tend to see a lot of similar patterns in the cards you get. This sounds a lot like what everyone who has had a “box” of MUSCLE’s...

I understand your "Baseball Card Theory" all too well Veers. When I was a kid I spend more money than I ever should have on baseball cards trying to find my favorite players and so forth only to have purchased two boxes to get like 50 or 60 copies of some lame players.


That being said, I would doubt the the M.U.S.C.L.E. series would have been packaged like that in some way. It just seems to me that the Super Rares are a bit too rare for this to be a correct theory (esspecially if you include Jkaris' recent find).

Maybe you're right, and if you are that would probably mean the the Super Rares aren't quite as rare as people here seem to think right now.

Only time will tell though, keep searchin' Arforbes!

[Soupie]

Now that I feel confident that the discovery of the Eleven is not a hoax perpetrated by jkaris, i.e., they are not TGB customs or products of Photoshop, I also feel comfortable saying they are not bootlegs at all.

Here's why:

1) Their quality: They look and, more importantly, feel exactly like MUSCLEs. (Or so I'm told.) This is very unlike most bootlegs, even other high quality MUSCLE-like bootlegs.

2) If, in fact, they were high quality bootlegs, there would be many, many more of them like Exogini and Future Man. Why bootleg such a small quantity... that look exactly like the real thing? Pointless.

While this certainly doesn't rule out the bootleg possibility altogther, I think it is safe to believe they are legit Bandai figures.

With that in mind, I want to take another look at the MUSCLE Suoer Rares:

We have the following Non-Poster MUSCLEs:

Part 15

Drunken Master
Dark Emperor

Part 21

Spinning Head Ashuraman
Black Hole Sunshine

Part 22

Terryman with Hat and Cape
Warsman with Spikes
Brocken Jr.
Ramen Man with Dragon
Satan Cross with hole (actually Samson Trainer)
Satan Cross (the guy who sticks his head IN the hole)

Part 24
2-piece Satan Cross (was not attached on a sprue)
Robin Mask

From Part 28
Prism Man
Mysterious Partner
Buffaloman (with bazooka?)

A few notes:

1) The Eleven differ from the others in that they were found in Japan
2) The Eleven introduce another multi-part figure
3) The Eleven share the property of being Flesh colored with the other SRs
4) The Eleven come from parts produced after parts 1-21 from which the 233 originate.
5) Interestingly, like many of the other SRs, the Eleven were found with other regular MUSCLEs.

[Soupie]

Continued...

6) Like the other SRs (with the exception of one SHA) the Eleven all came from one place. (The other SRs all came from the North East.)

7) Interestingly, the Eleven were found in regular MUSCLE packaging.

So what might this all mean?

I think it means that all our Super Rares:

1) Came from the Bandai factory
2) In regular packaging
3) with other regular Flesh colored MUSCLEs
4) as Prototypes

[jkaris]

Did Mattel know that this was coming? Did the partnership with Bandai reduce the profitability of MUSCLE?

So maybe as Mattel is doing great, late ’85-early ’86, Mattel plans on releasing 400 figures and production starts. But early into production they think, “What kid is going to buy 400 figures?” Instead of destroying any product it (the SR’s) are released. MUSCLE is a success, but things are getting worse at Mattel. Colors are the cheapest option to “innovate” the line.

That is actually very plausible. And say that most of these figures were some sort of salesman samples or test shots? All the markings would be the same, since the molds were already extablished and the plastic would have been the same since the line was already in production. Ths actually makes more sense, being that Part 28 was released in 1986 for the kinkeshi line. The molds may not have been created in time for the first wave of MUSCLEs.
Could be....

[Soupie]

That is actually very plausible.

You guys seem to be saying two different things, though.

Yes, a lot of toy line prototypes are a different color, but think about MUSCLEs: They are non-articulated and not painted. A prototype could very well look just like a regular MUSCLE.

As for the presence of trademarks, if they used actual Kinkeshi molds, or copies of those molds for MUSCLE plastic, either way the trademark would already be there, and thus it would show up on a MUSCLE prototype.

Veers seems to be saying they actually began mass production of 400 MUSCLEs and stopped, while jkaris seems to be saying they made the prototypes of all 400 MUSCLEs and then decided not to go ahead with mass production.

Either way, it's the same idea. I was thinking Bandai/Mattel made the 233 MUSCLEs, and then made prototypes of the next ones to be released (the Eleven) but opted to go with Colored MUSCLEs instead.

Perhaps we shouldn't lump SHA, BHS, DM, and DE togther with the Eleven.

One question I have is how Mattel/Bandai reached the arbitrary number of 233 MUSCLE sculpts to release?

233 Regular
234 With SC
236 With ring figures
238 With SHA and BHS
240 With DM and DE
251 (Dammit, why not 250) with the Eleven

[Tortle]

So maybe as Mattel is doing great, late ’85-early ’86, Mattel plans on releasing 400 figures and production starts. But early into production they think, “What kid is going to buy 400 figures?” Instead of destroying any product it (the SR’s) are released. MUSCLE is a success, but things are getting worse at Mattel. Colors are the cheapest option to “innovate” the line.

This actually seems like the most likely scenario. Not that the other options aren't possible, but that this theory seems more probable. This would apply to Satan Cross as well.

I wouldn't think that salesman samples and prototypes would make it into final production packaging. There might be examples of this happening (Vlix maybe?) but those examples are very rare, and again, I'm looking for the most probable theory.

Anyway, I feel that Veers' theory fits the facts that we absolutely know pretty well:

1) Super-Rares and Satan Cross were only made in flesh plastic. So, they were probably made before the colored figures.
2) As stated previously, the number quoted by Mattel for the total number of MUSCLEs was in the 200s.
3) The poster prototype on the back of 28-packs has about 420 slots for figures. This prototype was scrapped in favor of a poster with only 233 figures. None of the Super-Rares are shown on the poster.

Anyway, I suppose we'll never really know, but I know one thing: my favored theory of product recall that I tried to champion a few years ago is pretty much busted.

[Soupie]

Bandai wouldn't sacrifice the molds, the distributing rights, the factories, and the Man power to help Mattel push later series or current series that Bandai was already marketing and producing.  So initially Mattel was sure that they would be releasing about 400 figures, but then Bandai says "Well!  Due to the problem with manufacturing costs, it would be too difficult for us to Market our current lines at the same time as yours!  Not to mention it would cut in on our initial profits!"

So maybe as Mattel is doing great, late ’85-early ’86, Mattel plans on releasing 400 figures and production starts. But early into production they think, “What kid is going to buy 400 figures?” Instead of destroying any product it (the SR’s) are released. MUSCLE is a success, but things are getting worse at Mattel. Colors are the cheapest option to “innovate” the line.

Though we may never know the details of how and why, it does seem like Mattel considered the possibility of making more than 233 sculpts of MUSCLEs. So much so, as tortle pointed out, that an actual picture of a poster showing 400+ was sold in stores.

One thing to keep in mind is the fact that on average, starting with Part 1 and continuing through Part 21, one to two Kinnikuman were chosen not to be made into MUSCLEs.

So, at some point in time either Mattel or Bandai said: "Some of the Kinnikuman will not be made into MUSCLEs."

Two facts that I think are important are that all the SRs are flesh and they come from parts 15 and above.

Jkaris says that Part 28 was produced in '86. This would have been the same time that Bandai was potentially using "old" kinnikuman molds to produce MUSCLEs for Mattel.

Could Bandai make a batch of Kinkeshi and then a batch of MUSCLEs, or was there a conflict? Was there a conflict with all parts after 21? So rather than a "marketing" conflict, it was a production conflict.

Bandai says: "Look, we make the Kinkeshi, then we make the MUSCLEs." Mattel says: "Screw it, just use the available molds to make colored MUSCLEs."

However, like URS was saying, some factories were a little more effecient and thus had made MUSCLEs from parts beyond 21. Bandai says: "Alright, good job, ship them out, but don't bother to make any more."

A small few make it over to the US. (Or onto Yahoo! Japan.)



(This is all basically what URS said, I know, I'm just kind of re-phrasing it.)

Edited by Soupie, 23 January 2006 - 02:52 PM.

[Kevin Mayle]

251 (Dammit, why not 250) with the Eleven

Actually it is 250 (kinkeshi sculpts) and 1 American original (ring Buffaloman).

Edited by kevinmayle, 23 January 2006 - 02:53 PM.

[Soupie]

Okay, here is slight, but important, variation on the Broken Mold Theory talked about in this thread.

Let's assume that Bandai has at least two (Y and X) factories pumping out Kinkeshi and MUSCLEs.

They use old kinkeshi molds to make the MUSCLEs. One day, at factory Y, a mold from Part 21 breaks. Rather than lose profit, the workers are told to choose another mold and begin using it to meet the figure quantity demand. The previously un-used mold they choose is none other than Satan Cross.

Over at factory X, they have a similar problem, but it is a mold from Part 15 that breaks down.

Since Bandai no longer needs these broken molds for Kinkeshi, they don't bother making a new mold.

-----

Now, when production moves on to colored MUSCLEs, rather than use the extra molds, factory X and Y simply fail to make certain MUSCLEs in certain colors.

Just more meaningless speculation, especially the last part, but I just thought I'd throw that out there. By the way, I don't think this theory would apply to the Eleven.

[jkaris]

Good point, but if they pulled a mold to replace a broken one, then you would have multiples of the rare figure (like SC), but also you would have a SC in colors too.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Speculation! Maybe the reason they used the SC mold was because half of it was damaged while being used for kinkeshi. The half damaged just happens to be the back legs. Instead of tossing it out, they just give it to the muscle factory since the other part is good, and no Americans will be any the wiser. This makes some sense, because, correct me if I'm wrong, the kinkeshi Satan Cross figure is just as uncommon to come by as it is in Muscle plastic. Does that sound about right? Also when they went to make colored figs they probably seen the broken SC mold and just decided not to use a broken mold. Especially if the molds were sent to a different factory for making colored figs.

Edited by Universal Ruler Supreme, 24 January 2006 - 11:28 AM.

[gilgar]

Why would a Japanese seller have an American Mattel 28 pack full of MUSCLE figures, including Non-MUSCLE sculpt MUSCLEs, and one even consisting of multiple parts?

The answer is easy: They are prototypes.

Very cool find. They could easily be prototypes, bootlegs, one offs, employee gifts or test pieces.

It could have even been an employee from the Bandai factory who was able to get his hands on some MUSCLE material or knew enough to make an exact replica. Hell, they could have been a secret santa or birthday gift of someone's favorite scupts made in MUSCLE plastic for durability or to be different.

TGB's customs are flawless with the trademarks and all, much better than any boots out there. If TGB had real MUSCLE plastic or made some plastic indistinguishable from MUSCLE plastic then he could easily make some SR's that no one could distinguish from legit ones-this could have easily happened with someone in Japan too.

I'm sure there are people in Japan just as skilled as TGB or even moreso (no slight intended) that could have made the 11 plus the other 17 and gave them to a friend as a gift. They were put into a 28-pack either by the maker or someone else along the way for display/storage purposes over the years.

Like Hotwheels, Bandai could have made a very limited run of these 28 packs for a few key employees. Hot Wheels has done this with Christmas cars and other very limited issues.

You can't really say the 11 were found in the package because 28-packs are not sealed in any real way. Anyone could open them and put in whatever figures they please. 4 and 10 packs could also skillfully be opened, altered and carefully resealed however a very close inspection would detect the tampering unlike with the 28-pack

Edited by gilgar, 26 January 2006 - 09:57 PM.

[Kevin Mayle]

Posted: Nov 15 2005, 03:00 PM
This is a letter in Toyfare #30.
Posted: Nov 15 2005, 03:01 PM
Here is a letter from Toyfare #34.
Posted: Nov 15 2005, 03:02 PM
Here is the first page of the MUSCLE review in Toyfare #34.
Posted: Nov 15 2005, 03:09 PM
Here's the second page.
Posted: Nov 15 2005, 03:10 PM
And this is from Toyfare #99.

And in continuation, here is the latest from Toyfare #104

[jkaris]

Nice post! Thanks for archiving these Kevin.

On a related note, I have updated the Super Rares FAQ. Alex and Mischa have brokered a deal (with me as the middle man) for the Warsman figure. And I do believe we have a new SR record.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I like the guys last sentence in the toyfare 104 review.

[Soupie]

Recently, Arforbes discovered a unique Kinnikuman kinkeshi item. It was a group of 16 (8 unique sculpts plus 8 doubles) kinnikuman figures connected together by strings of plastic -- leftover plastic from the molding process.

The eight figures all belong to the same kinnikuman part. This discovery seems to indicate that the kinnikuman were molded together in group molds. URS called these group molds, trees.

Since each kinnikuman part is made up of varying amounts of figures, but typically more than 8, it can be assumed that each kinnikuman part consists of 2+ trees.

One can assume that since Bandai also produced the American MUSCLE figures, they used a similar molding process. However, the American MUSCLEs are not divided into parts. Furthermore, not all kinnikuman figures were made into MUSCLEs. We assume that not all kinnikuman figures were made into MUSCLEs for three reasons:

1) Not all kinnikuman figures are listed on the offical MUSCLE poster
2) Not all kinnikuman figures have been found in MUSCLE plastic
3) Some kinnikuman were produced by Bandai after the MUSCLE toyline was finished

However, several non-poster kinnikuman sculpts have been found found in MUSCLE plastic. They share two things in common:

1) They have all been found in flesh
2) There are at least 1-2 other non-poster kinnikuman that have been found from their kinnikuman part

We also know that Bandai produced colored MUSCLE figures. They were produced in 8 additional colors besides Flesh (and five were made in a Grape color).

We now know that each tree within each kinnikuman part has a unique color pattern. Some trees were not made in 1 of the 8 additional colors, some trees were not made in 2-3 of the additional colors.

No tree has been found to be produced in all 8 colors.

Furthermore, some trees were made in one color way more than they were made in other colors. For example, X tree may have been made in Green and Magenta, but finding the tree in Green is much easier than finding it in Magenta. The assumption is that there were more Green figures produced.

Though at this point the colors a tree was or wasn't made in appears to be random, at the same time the system seems to be pretty systematic.

In light of this new information, Ihave reached several conclusions:

1) No MUSCLE will be found in all 8 colors

2) It is possible to determine how many color variations there are, i.e., it is possible to attain a complete colored MUSCLE set and know that it is complete.

3) The SR MUSCLEs found in Flesh are factory creations that were either mistakes or purposefully produced figures that were later cancelled after final producation decisions had been made or corrected.

4) It is impossible to know how many other SR figures may exist, but it is likely that there are more.

5) Due to the systematic way the colored MUSCLEs were produced and the fact that they were produced at the end of the line after all decisions had likely been finalized -- no non-poster kinnikuman sculpts will ever be found color.

[Satan+]

Hi all ! Good news : my Super Rares arrived last week !
The former Alex´s BHS ( his first one ) and 2-pieces Satan Cross from John´s Magnificent 11 . Of course , both are 100% MUSCLES !
But I would like to ask you something about terminology...
1) as SHA and BHS were poped up in doubles in US market , maybe both are THE REAL AMERICAN MUSCLES . So , the flesh American collection is composed by 233 figs from poster +2 ring figs + SC + SHA + BHS . Of course I don´t know why ( infact , this is the reason of this topic ) but it is fact ! Remember SC , SHA and BHS are from the same Japanese part ...
2) the others 13 figs dicovered are uniques ( DM , DE and Magnificent 11 ) . They don´t have conterparts ! So , we should say they are ULTRA RARES and no Super Rares ( infact , only SHA and BHS are SR´s ) .
Of course there are other important things in the world , like wars and hungry people , but as I like to participate of this forum , I thought it´s interesting ...
What do you think ?
Thanks Jon and reards for every MUSCLE collector .
Ricardo .

[jkaris]

Looks like this could be the next one:
http://www.littlerub...showtopic=10110
Part 21 Dr. Bombay

[Soupie]

Holy shizznit, I just realized that the Eleven come from parts 22, 24, and 28.

I've always considered them to be "different" simply because they were found all together (unlike the other Non-Poster MUSCLEs) and because they were found in Japan (unlike the other Non-Poster MUSCLEs).

However, idiot me, I just remembered the regular MUSCLE line stopped at Part 21!

To me, that fact alone seperates the Eleven from the other Non-Poster MUSCLEs that we have found.

The other Non-Poster MUSCLEs (including the newest) come from parts 15 and 21.

This info from Jkaris is of great interest as well:

I just checked my mini-books. Parts 15-26 are all dated 1985. So they would have been in production in the same yer that flesh MUSCLEs were run, assuming that MUSCLEs were done in '85.

Hm, all Non-Poster MUSCLEs discovered so far come from parts 15 and up... Parts 15 and up made in 1985.

Although full production may not have begun in 1985, it's conceivable that MUSCLEs were also made in 1985.

My thinking is that as kinkeshi were being made at the same time and entire parts were being used, it makes sense that the entire parts of 15-21 may have been used to make MUSCLEs at one point.

For similar reasons as parts 1-14, eventually certain sculpts were not used.

However, it is also important to note that 3 of the Eleven are from part 28, which, according to jkaris, was made in 1987. (Which throws a monkey wrench in the 15-26 theory... although, I think, MUSCLEs were still being made in 1987... although in color...)

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Have you ever accidently found a muscle figure in any of the huge lots of keshis you have purchased from Japan Jon?