105 replies to this topic

[Soupie]

Okay, back in January of 2006, I wondered if there might be a connection between MUSCLE colored figures and the Kinnikuman parts they originally belonged to. (I'm not claiming to be the first, only explaining my thought process.)

However, thanks to a recent discovery by Arforbes (who else?) I again began to consider the possible connection between Kinnikuman parts and colored MUSCLEs.

I decided to do a little experiment. However, as in January, I just couldn't make the final connection.

I was thinking, well, if they were molded in groups, maybe half of them are in Dark Blue, and half of them aren't. However, I wasn't sure how to find out for certain.

As you can see, Universal Ruler Supreme, using the information at the MUSCLE Database was sharp enough to bring it all together.

I have to confess though, I had to read his two posts several times before I realized what in the hell he was saying.

For those of you who are interested, I'll attempt to explain it in the following posts with some pictures.

(If you are reading this, please refrain from posting in this thread until I'm done.)

[Soupie]

First of all, you must know the history of MUSCLEs as they relate to Kinnikuman. If you're not sure how they are connected, do some research and come on back.

Okay, the first thing that had to happen, which URS did, was to look at the statistics of each MUSCLE figure in Kin Part One and compare their MDB statistics.

He compiled their statistics into a database, compared them, indentified patterns, and grouped them accordingly. (The groups he referred to as trees.)

Take a look at the attached MS Word document to see Kinnikuman Part organized by MDB statistics!

Attached Files

•  Part1.doc   62K   35 downloads

[Soupie]

There are two basic things to look for:

1) Colors that figures have not been found in.

2) How many figures have been found in a particular color.

Using this information alone, URS was able to find the patterns!

(Of course, if it wasn't for Arforbes discovery, we would not have known to look for colored patterns within each part. Would we have eventually? Perhaps, but who knows.)

Edited by Soupie, 25 March 2006 - 04:02 PM.

[Soupie]

Thanks to Arforbes' massive collection, I have been able to arrange images of MUSCLEs according to the patterns URS was able to find.

Let's take a look at Kinnikuman Part One and the corresponding colored MUSCLEs!

But first, remember that URS was able to find a pattern that divided Kin Part One into two "trees."

Attached Files

•  Part_One_Image.jpg   99.18K   84 downloads

Edited by Soupie, 25 March 2006 - 06:02 PM.

[Soupie]

Okay, and here is Kin Part One, Tree Two.

Attached Files

•  Part_Two_Image.jpg   99.08K   67 downloads

[Soupie]

I hope you can see the patterns, both in the Word document, but especially in the images.

What do these patterns tell us?

1) They tell us that we will not find MUSCLEs belonging to Part One, Tree One in the colors MAGENTA and ORANGE. And, likewise, we will not find MUSCLEs belonging to Part One, Tree Two in DARK BLUE.

2) Equally important, we now know that MUSCLEs belonging to Part One, Tree One can be found in every color except MAGENTA and ORANGE. And, again, likewise with MUSCLEs belonging to Part One, Tree Two can be found in every color except DARK BLUE.

How do we know this for certain, though? Because, as Arforbes' discovery showed us, the MUSCLE figures were molded in groups! That means all the sculpts in a tree will share the same exact color pattern!

Sorry, Arforbes, this means you are missing exactly 15 colored figures from Part One alone!



* Remember, URS determined the patterns based off of MDB data, not Arforbes' collection. Arforbes has told me that he is missing at least 60 colored MUSCLEs that Philly Madison (another collector) has.

Edited by Soupie, 25 March 2006 - 05:24 PM.

[Soupie]

URS has already decoded several Kinnikuman parts using MDB data. He is uncovering some pretty cool stuff, and there is the potential that even larger patterns will emerge.

If you'd like to take a look at the Web page showing Part One Colored MUSCLEs, here's the link: MCIA Kin Part One

(If you were wondering, yes, I can view all the figures on my screen at one time. That's why I uploaded images. I figured the pattern would be easier to see.)

Alright, I'm done. Hopefully, this discovery will encourage more collectors to attempt a complete colored MUSCLE set!

[arforbes]

This is awesome, you guys rule! I will continue to submit pics of muscle colors that I find. That way the database can be more complete and therefore, more accurate as we discover new ones.

Keep up the great work!

[Soupie]

According to the tree patterns for Part One established by URS, there are 15 figures in existence that I do not have images of.

Arforbes has been collecting for a long time... How likely is it that he would be missing 15 figures from the first part decoded?

I decided to "test" the Tree Code.

The established patterns for Part One predict that every figure in Tree One should be available in GREEN. This means figure 156 should exist in GREEN.

I figured I'd browse eBay to see if the prediction could be validated.



See the attached image!

Attached Files

•  156_GREEN.JPG   32.71K   59 downloads

Edited by Soupie, 25 March 2006 - 06:27 PM.

[arforbes]

According to the tree patterns for Part One established by URS, there are 15 figures in existence that I do not have images of.

Arforbes has been collecting for a long time... How likely is it that he would be missing 15 figures from the first part decoded?

I decided to "test" the Tree Code.

The established patterns for Part One predict that every figure in Tree One should be available in GREEN. This means figure 156 should exist in GREEN.

I figured I'd browse eBay to see if the prediction could be validated.



See the attached image!

But I have #156 in green. According to MUSCLEDB and my records, I have him. Do you have the picture of him that should be included in the pics I took for the MCIA Soupie?

[Beligerant1]

This is a pretty neat development. How soon until you guys churn out the patterns for other parts? I want to know about figures like green #002 (which there is a picture of on the muscle board game) does this pattern you guys have found predict that he exists? Also, with some of the rarer figures like #002 purple, #145 purple, #149 purple, #108 salmon, etc... Since we know they exist, if you put together the pattern for their particular part, they may show whether or not we should expect to find other figures equally as rare, in those colors, that havn't been found yet. And finally, if you figured the patterns for all 233 of our muscle figures, will we find a figure, or group of figures that should be possible to find in all colors? or one color in which all figures exist?

[Soupie]

But I have #156 in green. According to MUSCLEDB and my records, I have him. Do you have the picture of him that should be included in the pics I took for the MCIA Soupie?

Yes! Looks like I have some double checking to do. (I'm sure I've missed others, too.) Thanks for pointing that out.

And finally, if you figured the patterns for all 233 of our muscle figures, will we find a figure, or group of figures that should be possible to find in all colors? or one color in which all figures exist?

I'm sure URS will have his own ideas about these questions, but I'm thinking we will not find any MUSCLEs in all colors, but your second idea seems plausible, and pretty cool!

Attached Files

•  156g.jpg   4.35K   34 downloads

[Soupie]

Okay, lest any of you think I withheld 156 GREEN on purpose, I decided once again to test the Tree Code Patterns for Part One.

According to them, all the figures in Part One Tree Two should be found in MAGENTA. However, according to what I have of Arforbes' collection, he is missing 5 MAGENTA figures.

So once again, I went to eBay. However, I found nothing! I decided to check over the images given to me by Arforbes, just incase I missed 1 or two.



See the attached picture!

Attached Files

•  MAGENTA_FIGURES.jpg   17.81K   43 downloads

Edited by Soupie, 26 March 2006 - 06:30 AM.

[Soupie]

Once again, here is Part One, Tree One updated with 156 GREEN.

Attached Files

•  Part_One_Tree_One.jpg   71.45K   35 downloads

[Soupie]

And here, once again, is Part One, Tree Two updated with the recently found (doh!) MAGENTA figures.

And here is the updated Web page: MCIA Kin Part One

Attached Files

•  Part_One_Tree_Two.jpg   74K   26 downloads

Edited by Soupie, 26 March 2006 - 04:54 PM.

[Soupie]

So rather than missing 15 figures, it looks like Arforbes is only missing nine. (That is, unless I've made even more mistakes. However, I did check over all the SALMON and LIGHT BLUE figures he sent me.)

[Soupie]

However, considering the colored figure search process before the Tree Code, missing 9 figures is better than missing the 9 plus the 28 MAGENTA, ORANGE, and DARK BLUE figures that we now know don't exist.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

How soon until you guys churn out the patterns for other parts?

Soon.

I want to know about figures like green #002

You will.

does this pattern you guys have found predict that he exists?

Maybe.

Also, with some of the rarer figures like #002 purple, #145 purple, #149 purple, #108 salmon, etc... Since we know they exist, if you put together the pattern for their particular part, they may show whether or not we should expect to find other figures equally as rare, in those colors, that havn't been found yet.

It should.

And finally, if you figured the patterns for all 233 of our muscle figures, will we find a figure, or group of figures that should be possible to find in all colors? or one color in which all figures exist?

No. Hope it doesn't bust anybody's bubble, but there will be no one figure in All Colors, There will be no Group of figures found in All Colors, And there is no color in which 233 figures will be found. Or Will We??? Hmmm.....

[arforbes]

I want to know about figures like green #002

You will.

He does exist based on the figures I have in green from that part. But he is rare.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I want to know about figures like green #002

You will.

He does exist based on the figures I have in green from that part. But he is rare.

Don't be so sure.

[Soupie]

Another aspect of colored MUSCLEs that the Tree Code will reveal is the availability -- or scarcity -- of each figure.

Of course we will need to rely on MDB data, so you may be wondering how this is any different from what Sirnate (a collector) has been doing.

For instance, a collector may look at the MDB statistics of figure X. The statistics say figure X has only been found in RED 4 times. This would lead one to believe figure X is rather rare in RED.

The power of the Tree Code is strength in numbers.

For example, lets look at imaginary Part A, which just happens to include figure X. Part A MDB data breaks down like this:

----------

# | DB | G | R

Z | 23 | 00 | 12

Y | 24 | 00 | 09

Q | 21 | 00 | 15

V | 25 | 00 | 08

X | 23 | 00 | 04

W | 24 | 00 | 11

----------

Again, because we known the colored MUSCLEs were molded in groups, they must all share a similar pattern! That means that figure X was produced in the same number as the other RED figures in its tree.

So, even though only 4 figures of X have been found in RED, we know that it is actually just as available as the other RED figures in its tree.

I will label the rows within each tree as either common, uncommon, rare, or not made.

MCIA Kin Part One

Because the pool of colored MUSCLE collectors is so small, this information will be extremely valuable in helping them make wise trading/purchasing decisions.

[jkaris]

Here's one for you guys to decode:
Re-Issues

This set was re-issued late 90's early 2000's. Are they from the same trees? If so, it might help you further define those trees.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I can tell you just by looking at them that they are all from the same trees. Not the same one tree, but they are from the same trees

for one thing, all 5 of the grape sculpts are in there.
second, #2's tree is in there. 100, 101, 102.

So the trees have definitely been proven.

[Soupie]

I've assembled several more colored MUSCLEs by Kinnikuman parts and another pattern of sorts has emerged. For those of you still skeptical about the Tree Code, see the links and explanations below:

First, take a look at Kinnikuman Part 3. You'll notice that there is one figure that Naochin has set apart at the bottom. Now, look at the MCIA colored MUSCLE Part Three, Tree Three. Notice that the figure set apart in the Kinnikuman Part seems to have a unique MUSCLE color pattern.

Next, take a look at Kinnikuman Part 5. Again, you'll notice that there are several figures that Naochin has set apart at the bottom. Now, look at the MCIA colored MUSCLE Part Five, Tree Four. Notice, again, that the figures set apart in the Kinnikuman Part once again seem to have a unique MUSCLE color pattern.

The best explanation is that the figures set apart in Naochin's archives ultimately indicate figures that shared a molding tree (though they were probably set apart by Naochin because they were released differently). This explanation is bolstered by the fact that the MDB data patterns discovered by URS indicate that the corresponding colored MUSCLEs should be arranged into trees that match the trees on Naochin's archive.

When we combine the above pattern, the MDB statistical data that URS used to originally divide up the trees, and the Kinkeshi reissue sets, it's hard to deny the veracity of the Tree Code.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Naochin's site will usually have a footnote at the bottom of the page if there is a split in the figures list. Almost all the footnotes, if translated, basically say that the bottom sets of figures were released later, after the above figures of that Part.

Also he only splits up the figure groups if they were released at different times, or belong to a subset (such as the versus figures). Basically none of his Part pages will have the figures seperated into the trees they belong to. This only occured like twice or so.

And for me, I knew it was cracked after I broke down the 28 pack info. There were alot more figures, 112 to be exact, and they coincided perfectly with my tree information. Here is the thread about the 28 packs.28 Packs
If anyone has anymore questions about any of this feel free to ask me or soups or just post it here or somewhere or anywhere........GO FIGHT!

And again! Great work on the site Soupie!

Edited by Universal Ruler Supreme, 14 April 2006 - 08:52 AM.