105 replies to this topic

[SmokinGun]

Any newbie still thinks SC is rare? Absoluley not. Just check out this SC sighting thread. This is just the tip of the iceberg. There has been hundreds more that hasnt been posted through out the years.

http://www.littlerubberguys.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3115

[Ridureyu]

193 and 84 are both 28-pack figures (Mighty Maulers and Thug Busters), and I had always assumed that 28-packs didn't necessarily sell that well. Although considering how many figures from them pop up, I could be mistaken.

Edited by Ridureyu, 27 July 2011 - 07:32 PM.

[Leitmotiv]

I stand corrected on the rarity for SC. I have 193 in flesh... Edit: oh and I see I have 84 too...

I actually don't have very many Muscles, maybe a couple handfuls worth.

Edited by Leitmotiv, 28 July 2011 - 09:14 PM.

[Jamesullivan]

The M.U.S.C.L.E. community calls them super rares.
The company calls them Exclusive Executive Collection.
The Collector's call them cha-ching.
The optimistic calls them bootlegs.

The truth is they are figures that have the same appearance as M.U.S.C.L.E.s and could pass off as M.U.S.C.L.E.

So paying a high price despite the possibility of their being "Millions" of other rares, still is reasonable because those other "millions" are currently unavailable.

[fuzzbuster]

The company calls them Exclusive Executive Collection.

I am fairly certain that you are the only person in the world to ever have used that term in reference to M.U.S.C.L.E.

[Jamesullivan]

I am fairly certain that you are the only person in the world to ever have used that term in reference to M.U.S.C.L.E.

Perhaps, can you verify that for me!

[walker13.1]

1. All M.U.S.C.L.E.s are exact replicas of their Kinnikuman counterpart. They were made in the sme factory, at the same time, using the same molds and a different material.

2. Every "Rare" or "Super Rare" figure listed HERE is indeed legitimate. I can vouch 100% for 13 of the sculpts, myself. I have held BHS, SHA and THESE in my grubby little hands, myself.

3. Yes, you are correct to take anything Alex says with a very large grain of salt based on his behaviour over the years, but the SR figures are indeed legitimate.

Well said. One can reproduce figures, but the dead give away for me when DE arrived was the smell.

[Leitmotiv]

Well said. One can reproduce figures, but the dead give away for me when DE arrived was the smell.

The smell? I have a couple ziplock bags of Muscles... and none of them smell like the way they used to. It's been over 20 years! Why does your DE still smell?

[Ericnilla]

The ones that retain the smell are the really well taken care of clean ones... you can give your figures a good cleaning in hot water. It brings out the smell.

[Ridureyu]

The last bunch of figures I received still had the old MUSCLE smell.

[Leitmotiv]

The last bunch of figures I received still had the old MUSCLE smell.

ha ok... now I'm going to the sink...

[Ridureyu]

Another good way to retain MUSCLE smell is to pack non-smelling MUSCLEs with ones that do, and leave them there for a while. Airtight containers work miracles for this.

[Jackson]

My glass M.U.S.C.L.E. jar, which contains a complete set of figures that were all well taken care of, reeks!.....in a good way

[Leitmotiv]

I think there's something else we should be considering. If eBay didn't exist, the knowledge of Satan Cross would not be as well known. I think eBay, because it touches upon the entire nation (and then some) really exaggerates the frequency of Satan Cross sightings (to speak nothing of the other super rares). If you only had flea markets and 2nd hand toy stores to go by, I think we'd have a better understanding of the real availability of Satan Cross. Basically, how easy it would be to obtain one in your local area.

Take Billy Galaxy in Portland for example. I called him up today and he said that he hasn't seen a Satan Cross in a really long time. To me, that is the definition of rare. Maybe not super rare. But definitely rare. eBay makes it appear there are so much more of them out there, but that's only because you have access to the entire market (or darn nearly). Even as that goes, eBay hasn't seen a Satan Cross in over a month and that IS for a very LARGE market. It may be uncommon on ebay, but realistically, for any local area back in the day to get one at retail... it's leaning towards rare. It easily fits the description of the word.

Edited by Leitmotiv, 24 August 2011 - 02:04 PM.

[Ridureyu]

The first Satan Cross sighting was in 1997 or 1996, and ebay does go back to 1995, BUT that sighting was separate from Ebay - it was spotted in someone's collection in the M.P.S., if memory serves me right. Darrin and Patrick Gresham both reported about it, with Darrin Vindiola supplying the first picture. A lot of Satan Cross's rarity comes from people just not wanting to sell the ones they have.

Edited by Ridureyu, 24 August 2011 - 02:22 PM.

[Leitmotiv]

The first Satan Cross sighting was in 1997 or 1996, and ebay does go back to 1995, BUT that sighting was separate from Ebay - it was spotted in someone's collection in the M.P.S., if memory serves me right. Darrin and Patrick Gresham both reported about it, with Darrin Vindiola supplying the first picture. A lot of Satan Cross's rarity comes from people just not wanting to sell the ones they have.

I see that, but it did take till 1996 to even identify the first one. Toy collectors were around prior to that and had access to the poster. I think the appearance of the first Satan Cross on eBay or not, doesn't mean much. But eBay being used to gauge the occurrence of something is probably not a good idea.

[ComradeCuttlefish]

I think there's something else we should be considering. If eBay didn't exist, the knowledge of Satan Cross would not be as well known. I think eBay, because it touches upon the entire nation (and then some) really exaggerates the frequency of Satan Cross sightings (to speak nothing of the other super rares). If you only had flea markets and 2nd hand toy stores to go by, I think we'd have a better understanding of the real availability of Satan Cross. Basically, how easy it would be to obtain one in your local area.

Take Billy Galaxy in Portland for example. I called him up today and he said that he hasn't seen a Satan Cross in a really long time. To me, that is the definition of rare. Maybe not super rare. But definitely rare. eBay makes it appear there are so much more of them out there, but that's only because you have access to the entire market (or darn nearly). Even as that goes, eBay hasn't seen a Satan Cross in over a month and that IS for a very LARGE market. It may be uncommon on ebay, but realistically, for any local area back in the day to get one at retail... it's leaning towards rare. It easily fits the description of the word.

Ebay gives collectors a BETTER and MORE ACCURATE understanding of the actual availability of items because it connects a greater share of the market together. Without ebay, most collectors are missing out on most of the market.

Ebay acts as a way for collectors to essentially visit every flea market, every toy store, every kids' box of giveaways, and every other collectors' items for sale with the click of their mouse. This leads to a greater understanding of the availability of an item and of the prices people will pay because collectors are now able to visit thousands of sellers instead of just the flea market or toy store down the street.

Without ebay, we wouldn't be able to as accurately gauge whether an item was common, uncommon, or rare. Ebay gives a clearer picture of availability, not an exaggerated one.

Edited by CuttleFishforsale, 24 August 2011 - 02:27 PM.

[Ericnilla]

A good point, also you have to think, how often do You even see Muscles. The Toy line is a pretty small nitch to other toylines of the time and also these figures are tiny compared to regular action figures. If it wasnt for ebay as well almost no one would have a set. So its hard to argue your point with out laying it all out. I think it all depends on area too, I have bought 3 Satan Cross's in my area and within all muscles have i bought it wasn't near a set. There were many that are abundant online that i probably still wouldn't have ever came across.

[jkaris]

But eBay being used to gauge the occurrence of something is probably not a good idea.

It is when you keep it in context with other M.U.S.C.L.E. figures that are just about as hard to come across on eBay as well.

If you really want to know how rare SC is in comparison with the other M.U.S.C.L.E. figures, tracking every eBay M.U.S.C.L.E. auction and noting the figure counts, for 6-12 months would give you a realistic statistic.

Having sold M.U.S.C.L.E.s for years when I had my store, and having tens of thousands of M.U.S.C.L.E.s pass through my hands, I really didn't see that he was any harder to come across than was say a flesh #195 or #193, etc. etc., which were always somewhat hard to get, mind you.

However, perception is not always reality, so if you really want to go from perception/theory to hard numbers, you would need to track actual appearances.

[Ridureyu]

1997. It was definitely 1997. I remember when Pat Gresham's site first updated with "I found one that isn't on the poster," shortly followed by Darrin Vindiola getting a picture of one.

Anybody still have that old pic? There's a photoshopped modified version on Nate's site.

[Jet-Mech]

However, perception is not always reality, so if you really want to go from perception/theory to hard numbers, you would need to track actual appearances.

That was exactly my aim in posting up the Class A sightings thread.

I also have some thoughts on the functions of eBay. It allows the non-enthusiasts (those who come across our beloved LRGs at an estate sale, or are clearing out their kids' old toys, for example) a known and easily accessible outlet to sell their merchandise. Enthusiasts can also use eBay to sell figures in the event that their figures fail to sell through other channels (as I did when I was forced to sell my old collection about two-and-a-half years ago). Unfortunately, it is an auction, which tends to be a high-pressure environment. That pressure, some sort of rush, the desire to outbid the next guy (or at least force him to pay more for it), or two collectors having a bidding war result from that pressure. That domino topples over, and the result is the high prices we've been seeing as of late.

[Leitmotiv]

Ebay gives collectors a BETTER and MORE ACCURATE understanding of the actual availability of items because it connects a greater share of the market together. Without ebay, most collectors are missing out on most of the market.

Ebay acts as a way for collectors to essentially visit every flea market, every toy store, every kids' box of giveaways, and every other collectors' items for sale with the click of their mouse. This leads to a greater understanding of the availability of an item and of the prices people will pay because collectors are now able to visit thousands of sellers instead of just the flea market or toy store down the street.

Without ebay, we wouldn't be able to as accurately gauge whether an item was common, uncommon, or rare. Ebay gives a clearer picture of availability, not an exaggerated one.

It's funny how much you agree with me, while still maintaining an air of disagreement. Yes, eBay gives you more availability, but a better understanding of it? How so? eBay is strictly it's own environment that doesn't pertain to original (and now nonexistent) proportions of the line. eBay is also not limited to just the U.S.A. It does not delineate any Muscles that may have entered the U.S. market from elsewhere.

I still don't think with eBay you can accurately gauge if a Muscle is common, uncommon, or rare. It increases availability and access, but that by no means is an interpretation of what was released in the states, or what happens after you release a product and certain figures become popular, others become lost, and yet more get chewed on by puppies. eBay is a condensed market of unknowable proportions and extents. It also doesn't take into account repeat auctions (meaning auctions bought, and subsequently reentered into the market) or other scenarios. eBay is also a highly collector oriented market which is not the original commercial market in which the Muscles first entered distribution. That also tends to skew things.

So many variables to consider...

Like jkaris said, it would be interesting to at least note the frequency of certain figures popping up on eBay but even then you'd have to take those statistics and note that many of them could be duplicates. How many of you have bought a lot on eBay, pulled only a few figures out, only to resell the leftovers?

Edited by Leitmotiv, 24 August 2011 - 08:43 PM.

[NamaNiku]

I recall reading online once the total number of kinkeshi Bandai produced in the 80's; a mind blowing amount. They kept pretty detailed records.

Japanese factories are meticulously run and document everything. Rouge employees, gray market runs, and wasteful practices are eliminated. Kaizen, Kaizen, Kaizen.

If a figure exists he was thought out and someone signed off on him. Sure he could have later got the axe, but we are talking about a Japanese factory here not a Chinese one.

Nothing at a company like Bandai in the 80's was done in a corner.

I am sure they kept detailed records on the number of every tree produced and shipped to Mattel etc. If that was not tracked by Bandai, I would be shocked.

Mattel on the other hand I doubt would still have records on that stuff.

Somewhere the SC "mystery" is shown in full light - albeit in a dusty Japanese filing cabinet.

I think all the answers we are seeking reside in Japan, and the chances of ever getting them......

[89cpe]

Lol kinda off topic but i had my sc since i was a kid and had no idea he wasnt part of the normal set until i joined here