C’mon, like you could possibly remember that. People “remember” stuff all the time. Plenty of SW fans swear that the Biggs scene was shown when it was broadcast on TV (which it wasn’t). The mind is a funny thing. None of us can trust our memory 100% when we talk about MUSCLE's. If we ever want to have a reliable answer, then we’re going to have to try to uncover as many facts as possible.
Anyway, SC isn’t worth that much. And he’s really not that rare. Check this out, SC’s “real” value.
My Search for MUSCLE Answers
Started by
Guest_General Veers_*
, Jul 10 2003 10:45 AM
148 replies to this topic
#102
Mr.Monster
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Posted 11 March 2004 - 02:22 PM
What are you questioning that I remember? If SC was so plentiful, then why did I complete one full and almost two complete sets, but never even saw one, plus I don't think I'm the only one?
I've got a better memory than most, especially when it came to toys when I was a kid. I can still tell you all the Star Wars toys I had when my parents started buying me them at age 4-5. But, whatever, I won't add anything else to the discussion. If my memory is questionable, I don't want to add potentially bad info to your search. BTW, good research on the price of the figure....
I've got a better memory than most, especially when it came to toys when I was a kid. I can still tell you all the Star Wars toys I had when my parents started buying me them at age 4-5. But, whatever, I won't add anything else to the discussion. If my memory is questionable, I don't want to add potentially bad info to your search. BTW, good research on the price of the figure....
#103
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Posted 18 March 2004 - 12:43 PM
Not to long ago Bandai-America, unable to help me, gave me the contact information of someone at Bandai Japan. This was the letter I sent.
Each time I get a response from these companies it looks less and less likely that we will ever have a definitive answer to our questions.
Here is the response I received, although it’s edited a bit so that it makes sense in this post.Dear Bandai,
Unfortunately the questions I have will be difficult to answer. I have already contacted the U.S. offices for Bandai and they have directed me to you. I hope that you will be able to help me.
Around 1985 Bandai was responsible for manufacturing M.U.S.C.L.E, which was then distributed by Mattel. After an extensive investigation of internet websites I was unable to find the answers I was looking for. Additionally, I have contacted Mattel numerous times and they are unable to help me because they were not the manufacturer.
My questions are:
1.) Specifically where did Bandai manufacture the toys in Japan?
2.) Does Bandai still use this location?
3.) Does Bandai have any log of which molds were used for the M.U.S.C.L.E line of toys?
4.) Did Bandai release certain M.U.S.C.L.E figures to non-US countries?
I understand these are difficult and in-depth questions for a toy line that was manufactured by Bandai almost 20 years ago. Hopefully you will be able to help me as the internet can no longer offer the answers I am looking for.
Please feel free to contact me for any reason. My
email is _____, and my telephone number is _________.
Thank you,
Clearly she misunderstood my last question, but I thought it was halfway decent information. I have emailed them again trying to get clarification on my last question, but I haven’t heard back form them yet.Dear Mr. General Veers,
Thank you for your email. Answer to your question, please confirm
below.
1.) We requested certain Japan vendors who have factories both in Japan and China. For the actual factory location, we do not have the data in our database, as at that time, we did not store the data in our computer.
2.) I believe that since 1980's, as business scheme changes, there may be a good possibility that the manufacturing place has been changed.
3.) No. We do not keep the molds approximately more than 10 years. Mold itself lost its durability for new manufacturing, once they are getting too old.
4.) The old series MUSCLE are no longer produced. New Ultimate Muscle, I believe were released in the United States for both products and TV series. Also, the new series Ultimate Muscle has been released in Asian
countries as well.
I hope that I am answering your question. Should you have any other question or comment, please feel free to contact.
Each time I get a response from these companies it looks less and less likely that we will ever have a definitive answer to our questions.
#104
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Posted 18 March 2004 - 08:54 PM
It does look like we may never know, but the information you are getting is useful nevertheless. Just the fact that someine is responding to your questions about a 20+ year old toy line is very promising. I just wish that we knew exactly what happened back then.
Good work once again Veers!
Good work once again Veers!
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#105
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Posted 29 April 2004 - 09:19 AM
Well, I finally got my response. Below is the letter that I sent in response to her answers. The pictures that I included were SHA and DM.
The Bandai mark, I believe, is a b with a circle around it. I’m at work right now, so I’m not sure if MUSCLE’s normally have this, but I assume they do. Do SHA and DM have it too?
I felt that the second paragraph was the most interesting, and the most difficult to read. Obviously we know that Mattel didn’t want Broken (the Nazi) as a MUSCLE. But who would have ok’ed a few additional sculpts? And why would so few of these appear, when there are tons of the other figures?
I know this hasn’t cleared everything up. But I think it definitely adds credence to the fact that SHA, BHS, and DM are non-US figures.
But it might add credence to the idea that they aren’t “real” MUSCLE’s. Maybe?
And remember I’m just kicking around ideas.
Here is her response. I have not edited it this time.Dear Bandai,
Thank you for your help! I appreciated you answering my questions, which many people were unable to answer. However, I still have one question.
I understand that the old MUSCLE series is no longer made, and that Ultimate Muscle is the current toy that has been released. But did the old MUSCLE line have a few figures that were released in other countries (i.e., Brazil, Canada, etc.) but not released in the United States?
I have included a few pictures of the figures. These figures are hard like the old MUSCLE's, but there are only 5 known examples of the first picture and one example of the second picture. All of the other old MUSCLE's show up in countless numbers. Collectors of the old MUSCLE's believe these are very rare, but we are unable to figure out where they come from. We know they are Kinnikuman sculpts, but they are not soft like the Kinnikuman. They feel and smell like MUSCLE's.
Does Bandai know if these figures were released in countries other than the United States?
Thank you again for your help, and I hope I am not being a bother.
Dear Mr. Veers,
I apolgize that I have not replied to you sooner.
Pleae be informed that we could not specify the product, whether it is from our company or not, without any coroporate mark, etc. If you can take a look at the back of the figures, and bandai mark is on them, it probably from our company.
However, the product launch is varies in each country. The product line is decided by country, because of the difference in the popular character appear in Muscle. Also, there is a case that Bandai has license in Japan only, and another company is developing and distributing the product outside Japan. Because the products are from same character, the product may look very similar.
We do not have much record left regarding the toy 10 or more years ago, and I could not locate a person who was in the department developing Muscle at that time.
I apologize again, for unable to find out more informaiton regarding this issue. I would like to ask for your understanding.
The Bandai mark, I believe, is a b with a circle around it. I’m at work right now, so I’m not sure if MUSCLE’s normally have this, but I assume they do. Do SHA and DM have it too?
I felt that the second paragraph was the most interesting, and the most difficult to read. Obviously we know that Mattel didn’t want Broken (the Nazi) as a MUSCLE. But who would have ok’ed a few additional sculpts? And why would so few of these appear, when there are tons of the other figures?
I know this hasn’t cleared everything up. But I think it definitely adds credence to the fact that SHA, BHS, and DM are non-US figures.
But it might add credence to the idea that they aren’t “real” MUSCLE’s. Maybe?
And remember I’m just kicking around ideas.
#106
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Posted 29 April 2004 - 09:33 PM
Yes, indeed they do...The Bandai mark, I believe, is a b with a circle around it. I’m at work right now, so I’m not sure if MUSCLE’s normally have this, but I assume they do. Do SHA and DM have it too?
I have attached a pic of them. SHA and BHS both have the mark you speak of. I feel the second paragraph clarifies that the Super Rares may indeed be non U.S. sculpts.
Nice job Veers!
Attached Files
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SHA_Back.JPG 58.67K
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Edited by arforbes, 29 April 2004 - 09:36 PM.
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#107
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Posted 29 April 2004 - 09:34 PM
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#109
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Posted 24 May 2004 - 06:11 AM
Has Philly posted a photo of the back of the Drunken Master?
He should post one here and then Alex should post the back of the new SR here too!!!
THEGODBEAST
He should post one here and then Alex should post the back of the new SR here too!!!
THEGODBEAST
#110
arforbes
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Posted 24 May 2004 - 09:57 AM
I don't think that he has. There is a pic of Drunken Master on Nathan's site, but no back scan. C'mon Phil, get with the program! Haha!Has Philly posted a photo of the back of the Drunken Master?
He should post one here and then Alex should post the back of the new SR here too!!!
THEGODBEAST
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#111
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Posted 25 May 2004 - 08:07 AM
Yup, there's a pic of his back on my site...Has Philly posted a photo of the back of the Drunken Master?
Drunken Master Back
#112
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Posted 25 May 2004 - 09:25 AM
Here a close-up back shot of the new Dark Emperor figure...Has Philly posted a photo of the back of the Drunken Master?
He should post one here and then Alex should post the back of the new SR here too!!!
THEGODBEAST
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DEBack.JPG 53.86K
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#113
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Posted 20 January 2005 - 11:17 AM
From:Red Lines OnlineMr. W also had some interesting information about where a lot of these production pilots ended up.
He told us about some of the "Consumer marketing" that was being implemented by Mattel then. The Mattel employees' kids were categorized by age and sex. This would determine which toys they got to "test".
Typically, there were approximately 100 production samples of certain cars given away. They would always be in some sort of container, such as a sealed baggie, but never loose. (for safety reasons) So these production sample were simply given away as test market toys!
Another category, the Mattel defects were sold at the Mattel Toy Club at closeout prices. Even today, the Mattel Toy Club sells (non-defective) cars that failed to sell in the stores and they often have closeout prices on them.
This interview was from a Mattel employee, and deals with Hot Wheels. However I thought it was interesting that Mattel had this type of “procedure” in place. Perhaps they had a similar practice for MUSCLE?
Just something to consider.
#114
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Posted 20 January 2005 - 11:28 AM
Makes sense. And of course, those kids would trade with other kids in their area, etc. etc. Makes a lot of sense.
#115
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Posted 20 January 2005 - 11:56 AM
That is a possibility, and one that we should consider when it comes to Super Rares. If it is true that Matell implemented similar proceedures for M.U.S.C.L.E.s, then that would explain why we have not seen the Super Rares in M.U.S.C.L.E. packaging.
Nice find Veers. Again!
Nice find Veers. Again!
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#116
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Posted 21 January 2005 - 12:46 PM
That is a possibility, and one that we should consider when it comes to Super Rares. If it is true that Matell implemented similar proceedures for M.U.S.C.L.E.s, then that would explain why we have not seen the Super Rares in M.U.S.C.L.E. packaging.
Definitely, the HW Beach Bomb with surfboards coming out the back window only (and other protos) went out to Mattel employees for their kids. Once they found out it wouldn't work with the box (Super Charger) that propelled them down the track they altered the model for production. There are other protos as well. Every once in a while a sale will pop up on ebay or elsewhere of proto's being sold either from an ex-Mattel employee or someone who got them from an employee. There are lots of stories on them too.
Rear Loading Beach Bombs
Currently about 20 of these models are known to exist. This model is by far the most expensive Hot Wheel with the pink having sold for over $70,000. Some of the other colors have more recently been sold for $ 12,000 to $15,000. The rear loading beach bomb was never produced packaged and sold, due to its narrowness. One of the requirements of all Hot Wheels In 1969 and for many years later, was that it be able to work with the twin wheel "Super Charger". Well this model did not work and Mattel had to have the side pockets added to give it the width that was needed so it could be launched from the "Super Charger" successfully.
Not unlike the very few known Super Rares and the prices they command albeit on a smaller scale.
From what I've gathered over the years, the HW employees/designers are fairly well known--unlike the MUSCLE ones--they attend HW shows, conventions, etc. I suspect if MUSCLES were as widely collected as Hot Wheels and commanded similar prices we might see them coming from employees or those who contacted employees.
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#117
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Posted 21 January 2005 - 01:43 PM
But remember Mattel didn’t create these toys. They were produced in Japan. Mattel simply released them.From what I've gathered over the years, the HW employees/designers are fairly well known--unlike the MUSCLE ones--they attend HW shows, conventions, etc. I suspect if MUSCLES were as widely collected as Hot Wheels and commanded similar prices we might see them coming from employees or those who contacted employees.
#118
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Posted 21 January 2005 - 02:21 PM
Yeah, that's true however there still could have been test runs, protos or maybe even samples for a potential new or expanded line given to Mattel employees here in the States ala the HW protos which Mattel wanted to test on employee's kids and then maybe little Billy swallowed the peg from BHS and the idea was nixed. Or more likely sales were slumping, other lines taking off...But remember Mattel didn’t create these toys. They were produced in Japan. Mattel simply released them.From what I've gathered over the years, the HW employees/designers are fairly well known--unlike the MUSCLE ones--they attend HW shows, conventions, etc. I suspect if MUSCLES were as widely collected as Hot Wheels and commanded similar prices we might see them coming from employees or those who contacted employees.
Perhaps the SR's were samples presented to Mattel in a pitch from Bandai to expand the MUSCLE line beyond the posters and introduce all the figures from the Japanese line whereas Mattel chose to go with the colors instead to renew interest in the line.
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#119
Satan+
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Posted 21 January 2005 - 07:10 PM
Excuse me to enter in this discussion , but I agree with Gilgar .
I think something scaped your attention ; a clue in front of our eyes : the poster behind the 28-box set . There are 400 figures ( I think ) but nobody can identify them . Are they the whole collection Mattel once intended released and them desisted ?
I agree the fact Mattel had reproduced the original kinkeshi in MUSCLE toyline in the middle of the 80´s on the first year and desist from released the rest of them on the second one . Instead , released the color one .
Remember , that time Mattlel earned a lot of money with two toylines : MOTU and Transforms . So , I am certanly MUSCLE was not its priority .
Satan Cross was released normally with the others on the first year ( of course without the second part as 4-packs you have ) .
The others Super Rares from SC series ( BHS and SHA ) were released in small series only in towns next to Canada , as Bufalo . But I do not know if they were released in Canada market place . If it happend , maybe there are others like that lost in Canada and Australia . They were retired earlier because Mattel decided to go ahead with color project . Remember , they have small pieces ( the head and the plug ) , so if the childrem lost this parts , the toy got to trash can . It explains why there are so many figures known .
Dark Emperor and Drunker Master ( and possibly Black Menrui ) were also released in small series , located on North and I think there are small numbers than BHS and SHA .
What I do not know is how this BHS was found without our knowledge of its existence ? On the first time , I thought it was fake . But it was so similar to others .
The person whose announced that lot had the whole collection , the poster , and known the "rarity" of BHS and SC . He ( she ) was a big fan or got this lot to a big one . In both cases , the person knew what had in the hands . But did not know BHS could reach $910.00 .
Thanks a lot . Stay in peace .
I think something scaped your attention ; a clue in front of our eyes : the poster behind the 28-box set . There are 400 figures ( I think ) but nobody can identify them . Are they the whole collection Mattel once intended released and them desisted ?
I agree the fact Mattel had reproduced the original kinkeshi in MUSCLE toyline in the middle of the 80´s on the first year and desist from released the rest of them on the second one . Instead , released the color one .
Remember , that time Mattlel earned a lot of money with two toylines : MOTU and Transforms . So , I am certanly MUSCLE was not its priority .
Satan Cross was released normally with the others on the first year ( of course without the second part as 4-packs you have ) .
The others Super Rares from SC series ( BHS and SHA ) were released in small series only in towns next to Canada , as Bufalo . But I do not know if they were released in Canada market place . If it happend , maybe there are others like that lost in Canada and Australia . They were retired earlier because Mattel decided to go ahead with color project . Remember , they have small pieces ( the head and the plug ) , so if the childrem lost this parts , the toy got to trash can . It explains why there are so many figures known .
Dark Emperor and Drunker Master ( and possibly Black Menrui ) were also released in small series , located on North and I think there are small numbers than BHS and SHA .
What I do not know is how this BHS was found without our knowledge of its existence ? On the first time , I thought it was fake . But it was so similar to others .
The person whose announced that lot had the whole collection , the poster , and known the "rarity" of BHS and SC . He ( she ) was a big fan or got this lot to a big one . In both cases , the person knew what had in the hands . But did not know BHS could reach $910.00 .
Thanks a lot . Stay in peace .
#120
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Posted 22 February 2005 - 06:48 PM
Has anyone tried a online petition to see if Bandai could re-release the old line maybe also make more because in the 80s we didn’t have the TV show here I didn’t even know there was one for a while but the still sold i think they could still sell these things here because of how cool they looked so I’m sure boys would still buy them. the price was good to 99 cents for 4 of them kids who don’t have to much money would like the fact they are getting 4 figures for a dollar meaning for there 5 dollar allowance they could get 20 of them where that 5 dollars wouldn’t even buy one power ranger toy. and the fact they are very tradable is a great idea. if there isn’t a petition there should be one.
Edited by maxdrive, 22 February 2005 - 06:58 PM.
#121
dankingery
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Posted 05 February 2008 - 10:20 AM
i'm new to the site so i don't know if anyone has tried this, and there is an assload of info on here to sift through. so, does anyone ever get in contact with kinnikuman collectors in japan and ask them about their "m.u.s.c.l.e.s"? My theory is that the super-rares come from errors in the factory. i don't think it's a coincidence that part 15 figures have popped up being made out of the same plastic as the american figures even though they weren't slated to be shipped to the u.s. i'm thinking that the part 15 and part 21 figures that have been found to be made out of our plastic were suppose to go to japanese packaging and just slipped through the cracks. if we could find someone who collects the kinkeshi and see if they've ever found figures in the original packaging that is molded in the u.s. plastic maybe we can finally put this issue to rest. but, like i said, i'm new here and this may have already been addressed. please don't send your unholy army of lesbian robot zombie monkeys to kill me.
if i encounter the demons in hell, i will kill them all..
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#122
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Posted 05 February 2008 - 12:04 PM
I love all your pleading at the end of your posts....
:sends lesbian robots monkeys to Farmington:
Anyhow, I have asked the owner of TZ about this. Specifically, I asked if there was anything "special" about the non-MUSCLE sculpts in the kinnikuman line. The answer was not that she or her brother -- a big time keshi collector -- where aware of. However, she did suggest that maybe she could ask Noachin... but that's as far as it went.
Perhaps all create a concise list of 4-5 questions, including the one you ask above, that she could translate and ask Naochin about.
#123
matthewf1tz
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Posted 05 February 2008 - 01:32 PM
Perhaps all create a concise list of 4-5 questions, including the one you ask above, that she could translate and ask Naochin about.
I'm having weird visions of Naochin being some sort of Wizard of Oz!? A big booming voice from behind a pile of keshi...
but nice idea, I'd love to hear what he has to say
#124
dankingery
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videogames.
shooting.
Posted 06 February 2008 - 05:13 PM
Perhaps all create a concise list of 4-5 questions, including the one you ask above, that she could translate and ask Naochin about.
I'm having weird visions of Naochin being some sort of Wizard of Oz!? A big booming voice from behind a pile of keshi...
but nice idea, I'd love to hear what he has to say
what if naochin is the real-life model and inspiration for 153?.. that would be so badass.. i'd want to armwrestle 'em..
if i encounter the demons in hell, i will kill them all..
vi veri veniversum vivus vici.
#125
dankingery
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just getting into knife making.
blade of the immortal is my master.
videogames.
shooting.
Posted 12 April 2008 - 05:33 PM
uhmm.. check out this auction.
http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem
at the bottom the seller answers a question about the type of plastic used and he says: "they are ALL ORIGINAL VINTAGE soft, -NO HARD REISSUES-". anyone ever heard of hard plastic reissues of the kinnikuman series? maybe this is where the super-rares came from. we've all seen kinnikuman figs for sale in new york and new jersey on craig's list that appear to be super-rares (i.e. dr. bonbe). granted, nothing has been confirmed, but maybe they've bought what they thought were super-rares and they've ended up just being re-issued kinkeshi that are of a different, harder plastic.
http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem
at the bottom the seller answers a question about the type of plastic used and he says: "they are ALL ORIGINAL VINTAGE soft, -NO HARD REISSUES-". anyone ever heard of hard plastic reissues of the kinnikuman series? maybe this is where the super-rares came from. we've all seen kinnikuman figs for sale in new york and new jersey on craig's list that appear to be super-rares (i.e. dr. bonbe). granted, nothing has been confirmed, but maybe they've bought what they thought were super-rares and they've ended up just being re-issued kinkeshi that are of a different, harder plastic.
Edited by jkaris, 12 April 2008 - 06:20 PM.
if i encounter the demons in hell, i will kill them all..
vi veri veniversum vivus vici.
