137 replies to this topic

[Donkeykid77]

After actually reading most of all this stuff... ...
I must say I hope this thread will die a quiet death soon, so I can stop reading...
And may Arforbes and the other guy Mr Whatshisname, don't even care already anymore
may they RIRP*

DK.

*=Rest In Relative Peace

[hunterrose2000]

I was just trying to defend MY position on the subject and reason for starting the thread, when it was deemed that I was not making a psychological dissection, but I was instead acting in poor taste and attacking the business practices of someone who can not defend themself.

I'm not sure exactly what you're referencing there, but I'll back you up that none of this is in bad taste...certainly not your original posts, but I think it goes for the rest as well. There might be some "bashing" among the more serious discussions, and arforbes might not be here to defend himself, but the only one to blame for that is arforbes himself. Everything should be fair game for discussion. I think it's actually pretty ironic to have any set of rules for "fair" discussion about him, when it was his thorough lack of fair dealing that lead to this whole situation. People may be entitled to confront their accuser in court and have a presumption of innocence, but this is no democracy. Jkaris could just pack up his toys and go home (literally!) any time he likes. And obviously he's trustworthy enough that we can rely on his own investigation to leave no doubt about what really happened. So, I don't see any reason to hold back on anything...and from any perspective--economically, psychologically, whatever--I think it's a great opportunity for reflection.

[Kevin Mayle]

I'm not sure exactly what you're referencing there

I think that's where all this confusion has come from. So I'll come right out and say it. I was defending my position against Veers first post. That's all I was doing. Let's all discuss anything we want. It doesn't matter to me. But Veers post was directed at me and my intentions, so I had to clarify what they were. I didn't realize it would confuse everyone for the next 50 posts.

[Jet-Mech]

I'm not sure exactly what you're referencing there, but I'll back you up that none of this is in bad taste...certainly not your original posts, but I think it goes for the rest as well. There might be some "bashing" among the more serious discussions, and arforbes might not be here to defend himself, but the only one to blame for that is arforbes himself. Everything should be fair game for discussion. I think it's actually pretty ironic to have any set of rules for "fair" discussion about him, when it was his thorough lack of fair dealing that lead to this whole situation. People may be entitled to confront their accuser in court and have a presumption of innocence, but this is no democracy. Jkaris could just pack up his toys and go home (literally!) any time he likes. And obviously he's trustworthy enough that we can rely on his own investigation to leave no doubt about what really happened. So, I don't see any reason to hold back on anything...and from any perspective--economically, psychologically, whatever--I think it's a great opportunity for reflection.

I couldn't agree more.

[doc_moore_j]

My brain hurts. I just want to say I love you guys. Especially Soupie cause he sends me naked pictures of his sister from time to time, thats what I call a fair trade

As far as shilling, I figure if you wait till the last second and snipe the auctions, you dont have to worry about it. Do I always follow this rule, no, sometimes I have the habit of marking my territory so to speak if I see an auction I like I bid. But now with the annon bid stuff, I might as well snipe everything.

I havent had a sour trade with anybody on this forum, I am pretty happy about that. I look forward to future trades with many of you.

And as far as Alex and his mental conditions go, I just hope he puts his SR's on ebay before he hangs himself.

[Kevin Mayle]

And as far as Alex and his mental conditions go, I just hope he puts his SR's on ebay before he hangs himself.

Hahahaha!

[Kevin Mayle]

I’m sorry if you thought I was suggesting your intentions were bad. Not that big of a deal.

Cool.
True, no big deal.

[dankingery]

wow. i remember sitting in my parents living room playing war with all my muscles when i was a kid. i could spend hours, days, even weeks playing with them. i loved them then, i love them now. i collect the toys i loved as a kid and i play with them. i've now got way more than i ever did as a kid. not because i've become obssessed with getting every last one and hoarding them all so no one else can have them. because i could now afford to purchase enough to complete a set. something i always wanted to do as a kid. all this talk about trading up or screwing the new guy out of something "i've just got to have" is confusing to me. if i've got toys i don't want and someone has toys i do want, then the ones i don't want have no value and the ones i do want have limited value. the value is limited to what i can afford to trade/pay for them. i guess this makes me a mark for getting screwed. i could care less if i've got "rare" colors. i hated the colored muscles except for my green 154, he was predator. i guess my point is, i don't understand all this talk of trades for financial gains. i can't imagine a hobby being fun if it was broken down into financial matters. money sucks, hope it dies. if i was going to trade with a friend, it'd be so we both made out like bandits. i like sharing my stuph with everyone. i had a friend over this weekend so we could play games on my new wii and show him how large my lrg collection has become. it got him excited and he wanted to hunt down his old muscle collection and start collecting again too. i told him i'd help him finish a complete flesh set with my dupes. i've easily got one compelte, one almost complete and two half sets, so it'd be no skin off of my nose to help him out. i don't know, it goes back to my feeling that helping out a brother helps me out. people talking about how they think everyone is guilty of shady doings is attributing parts of their character, or lack there of, to other peoples' characters. i'm guilty of this too in a sense. i always assume people are on the straight and narrow because i am. it's a hard way to live my life because from time to time i get burned when someone turns out to be low class. there's one guy i knew in high school who walked away with a deck of my magic cards, and i didn't know it for a few days. when i asked him where they were he said, "someone stole them from me." yeah right. of course i want to say where's my cards mufuka. how about i take them out of your @$$ beeotch. but, i wasn't collecting them at the time for money, i was collecting them to play with. he took a white deck i wasn't playing much with at the time anyways, so not a national disaster. it was a small price to pay to get someone dishonest out of my life. man this is long. i guess what i'm saying is be good to the brews on the board, don't be stupid and make a trade without first getting photographic evidence of what you're getting, that way when you get screwed by them you've got proof. never make a trade for something unless it's for what you want at a "price" you can live with. i'm one of the new guys on here too, and i feel out of line lecturing like this. alot of what i've said has already been stated as well, so i guess jkaris can just zap this post.

[NamaNiku]

If any of us died, then the MUSCLE’s would probably just get thrown out. Who knows they are worth anything? Just us nerds.

So funny and true.

I had a pipe burst in my basement a few months back, and one of the guys from the disaster clean up crew walked by my MUSCLE and Kinkeshi collection and said something like "lucky your little eraser collection did not get damaged."

If you only really knew buddy!

[doc_moore_j]

Edited by doc_moore_j, 04 June 2008 - 07:25 PM.

[jkaris]

Wow! What a discussion!

Let me just say that, from the get go, this group has always been about community. As KM said in referencing some of the original crew, the old feel has dissipated quite a bit. But there is still a lot there, if you hang around long enough to notice it.
I think with the tremendous force that was "Alexander R Forbes", now gone, things will start to shift back to the way they were, and the group as a whole will grow faster than it ever has before. I also believe that prices will drop for the rarer items. Hell, we might even see $300 SRs again (ok, maybe not...). But the "business" feel to the group will undoubtedly drop a few notches. I might even start getting reamed again for all the M.U.S.C.L.E.s I buy on eBay (a few of you guys will remember that from the old email group, ).
But it was stated long ago, and I am sure it will be stated many times to come, you have to realize that with any growing group, whether it is a fan group, message board, a volunteer organization or a business, there are several stages of growth and a lot of the old things that we hold so dear, are just not viable anymore. These are growing pains and we can do one of two things...
1. We can cap the growth and be stagnant
2. We can deal with the challenges as best as we can, always holding tight to our original principles, knowing that not all change is bad.

When we first morphed from the email group to the AKIA board, the community exploded. We had several brand new users join and participation was gargantuan versus the email group. Some of those new members were arforbes, Doc_Moore_J, GRANDTHEFT, Musclemenkids, Soupie, URS, etc. It was GREAT! And the board continued to grow and prosper.

Meanwhile, I was part of another email group "LittleRubberGuys" which was a BattleBeasts/MUSCLE hybrid group (ha ha,you guys thought I coined the phrase, but I didn't). TheGodBeast was a big art of that group at the time as well as the BattleBeasts email group, and he ventured over to see what was going on here, and he decided to stay. One of the things he noticed immediately was how well everyone got along. The LRG email group and also the near identical BattleBeasts email group were constantly bickering, fighting, having flame wars,etc, etc. It was total chaos,much like you see on a lot of the other boards.
But here we were, a bunch of geeky 20 somethings playing with our M.U.S.C.L.E.s (ok, that didn't sound right ). You had the Fox and Tortle Show, Kinniku-MUSCLE Wrestling, The Daily MUSCLE, etc. And he had a great idea!
"Why not create a BattleBeasts message board, like we did with the MUSCLE group?"
I was hesitant at first, because the BB email group was on it's last leg. All the flaming was about to get it shut down. I didn;t want to create a board, just to have it turn into a shizznithole like that. But Marty convinced me to do it, and when we did, guess what? Everyone got along. There was a TON of new blood injected into the group. The amicable people from the old BB group came and stayed. The jerks didn't. a-holes don't like to stay where they aren't welcome.
So both boards continued to grow, and of course there was a lot of spillover between the groups. Even Alex tried his hand at BB/LB stuff. But his obsession lay only with M.U.S.C.L.E.s.
So after a couple years (I think it was 2 years...) I began to notice that both groups were starting to stagnate. Two boards, with hundreds of members, only representing two very niche, very miniscule toylines. There wasn't much room for growth and we were slowly fading. So I asked myself, what is the next step for growth?
We can add other sections for specific toylines to the group (Fistful of Power, Monster in my Pocket), but that didn't fare too well. The two groups were identified too strongly with their titles. AKIA (MUSCLE/Kinnikuman) and Beastformers (Battle Beasts / Laser Beasts). I decided to join the two boards together for a few reasons, one was to make it easier to manage them and the board events (Secret Santa, Custom Contests, etc), another was with the theory that when one group was stagnant, the other group would not be, and if I joined them, they would feed off each others creativity and interaction would flourish. The last reason was that I wanted to provide an avenue for growth. Most of us collected plenty of other toylines. Transformers, GI Joe, Marvel Legends, etc. But mainly, we collected small, non (or semi) articulated rubber figures. So I decided on LittleRubberGuys.com. It perfectly enveloped what we were.
So, I took the board down for the weekend and got both board merged into the latest version.
Some people were upset, one even so much that he got himself booted off (scrappy, I believe) and some left (only to return later to find that they really did lie the new direction). But most of you saw the potential to the merging of the two groups and the broad opening that would allow us to pull in the other "LittleRubberGuys" toylines.
So far, I think we have weathered that step with flying colors. We have had our ups and downs. Unfortunately, I would have to agree that we did run off a few people unintendedly. But we are here now, at the next phase in our evolution, so to speak.
Alex, who was a HUGE force withing the groups, both good and bad (sadly, more bad than good) is gone.

Where does that leave us?

Where will we go?

Will we learn from our mistakes and carry on?

Will we let the CHEAPTOYMANs arforbes' of the toy collecting world harden us and steal the magic from us.

Will it further erode the sense of camaraderie that has always set us apart?

Or will we use this event as a stepping stone to become much greater than we ever were in our sense of community?

Will we strive to encourage and praise the most creative of us to continue to breathe new life into our group?

Will we continue to share our community with those on eBay and other boards until this place become the hub for all things LittleRubberGuys?

And can we do all these things without losing the glow that we have allowed to fade?

This is what I am asking.

Because if growth means that we will slowly become just like all the other overly hostile boards, if growth means that we will have to deal with more people like Alex and CTM, then I don't see the point in continuing. Then yes, as someone stated, I will take my ball and go home. If I didn't have this hobby, if I didn't manage this board, I could be doing a lot more profitable things in life.
But know that I do this out of a love for the hobby, a love for the group and the fact that some of my best friends in life have been discovered here within you guys. Of my top ten friends in life, I can truly say that half of them are here on this board. And I have a LOT of friends, so that really says something.

And don't get me wrong, I am not saying all this because I think we will carry on down the wrong road. I say this because I know that the bonds that have always bound us together, the sense of community deep within all of us will prevail and we will "without a doubt" go on to be greater than ever.

To borrow a well used phrase, "The best is yet to come!" Help me to make this happen!

(damn, now I feel like Obama )

[GRANDTHEFT]

It'll pull together Johnny , just look at the passion in members replies , i congratulate you Jon on the manner in which you have conducted yourself through out this incident and to keep us all informed in your decision making and all other members who have had a view on this matter well done I'm proud to call you all mates





ps does anyone else think it's the evil in Satan Cross that's doing all this?





Mischa

Edited by GRANDTHEFT, 05 June 2008 - 12:14 AM.

[Kevin Mayle]

Great post Johnny!
I especially love the history of the LRG e-mail group and the Beastformers stuff, because I didn't know any of that.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

D@mn! Now we sound like a Cult! Great post Johnny! I think your post gives us fogeys something to continue to hope for here.

I believe first impressions are everything for a board and it's people. It is up to the current members to make this board what it is and keep it that way. If your an old member and you cheat everyone new who shows up just a little bit, that can affect how they conduct their business with others. So I feel it is our obligation, not so much to be overly generous, but to make folks feel welcome to the group and treat them like we would want to be treated. Sort of like hugging your children. So they will come along and know that they aren't just here for no purpose.

I've had my share of ups and downs on this board, but I'm going to try to focus on all the ups, and try my best to forget about all the downs. I'll apologize for any wrongs I may have done, and forgive the wrongs done to me.

Compare these:

Ups of being here: I have a list of great associates! Had awesome fun trades! Been able to share my love for an otherwise unknown hobby with others ALL OVER THE WORLD!! I've met People I would never have met anywhere else! I've been able to contribute some useful knowledge to the hobby! I've got my User Name posted on all the Major Muscle sites! I've even been granted the title of a Legend, which is really humbling still! Did I mention I was Legend?

Downs of being here: Had a handful of poor trades. Most of the guys I've had them with aren't even here anymore. That's really all i can think of. .......maybe got a few guys mad at me.

Now tell me which of these outweighs the other?

Thanks for putting a more positive spin on the discussion guys, hopefully this topic can end on nothing but positive notes, instead of suspicion and old wounds.

[mrjayberry]

URS-you also won an art contest, though the downside is it was before they started the patches

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

URS-you also won an art contest, though the downside is it was before they started the patches

DARN!! I knew I was forgetting to brag about something!

[THEGODBEAST]

I know I said I would only post once on this...but, after reading and pm'ing w/ hunterrose...I know EXACTLY what he is saying/concerned with. I think that we need a feedback section/addition for members to work out their disputes and/or potential scams so that it is public knowledge. Now that said, this would be a highly touchy area...I mean seriously...if someone publicly called out someone w/ a potential scam and then it is proven to not be...that person claiming it would put themselves in a pretty bad light. I do think that would be an EXTREMELY RARE occurrence that someone would even claim such a thing, but, I think this area would be good for members working out deals gone bad. If it was similar to the Junk Yard, but, in the feedback area or buying/selling/feedback/sightings section I think it would help members. Maybe even when there are situations sooooooo large like the Yapiel & Balucard situations the mods could even rule like a court on what the resolution is...that would make it the ultimate word on a major decision that the parties couldn't work out themselves. It would also be helpful for members to see an area where questionable Ebay auctions are posted and discussed in one easy to find place.

I dunno...maybe this is a bad idea...but, I totally understand the members like hunterrose concerns and I feel their concerns need to be addressed in order for everyone here to feel more comfortable after all this.

Any ideas Jon?

TGB

[Soupie]

Hey, Soupie's chiming in, what a surprise.

What I'd like to see -- going along with TGB -- would be a more-formalized process of what Jkaris essentially already does:

(1) Members are free to conduct business whenever and with whomever they'd like.

(2) If there's a problem, they try to work it out privately with PMs

(3) If the situation doesn't improve -- one or the other go PRIVATELY to a panel of "Transaction Moderators." I think it would be ideal to have 3-4 members with impeccable records assigned to help work things out. One member could even be a none moderator. *cough cough Tortle cough* Who these moderators are should be public, though.

(4) If a particular member is referred to the panel multiple times or for one severe offense -- maybe there could be (1) a thread with a list which their name is added to for a certain period of time, (2) maybe they get a "Scarlet Letter" under their avatar (or as their avatar ) for a certain period of time, (3) or maybe they get banned for a certain period of time, etc.

Hopefully this would encourage people to work things out quietly on their own. Ultimately, maybe it would raise the risk of trying shady stuff here at all! But also, it would lower the risk of unneeded public drama that could hurt both parties. (I think this could also extend to members who behave badly on eBay because sometimes the forum is used as a base of operations...)

But Hunter is right that if someone is consistently engaging in shadiness -- everyone needs to be made aware so they can be on a level playing field and react accordingly.

Edited by Soupie, 05 June 2008 - 10:16 AM.

[hunterrose2000]

Hopefully this would encourage people to work things out quietly on their own. Ultimately, maybe it would raise the risk of trying shady stuff here at all! But also, it would lower the risk of unneeded public drama that could hurt both parties. (I think this could also extend to members who behave badly on eBay because sometimes the forum is used as a base of operations...)

Good stuff. I would add that ebay should absolutely be a big part of this. After all, it was the big ebay scams that are the main reason for the bans that just occurred. Also, especially for established members, its the anonymity that ebay can allow that makes it more attractive for scamming. And because of that, i would encourage any member to speak up publicly about any shadiness they see on ebay as well as the actual buyers/sellers/bidders bringing the matter up to the private panel. The panel could make the ultimate decision on what to do if a member is involved on the other side, and/or to report the transaction to ebay. But, before that, I think public attention is very important. It clearly helped here.

And for that matter, I'll just second what TGB said. I would encourage members to post about bad off-ebay deals (in a particular forum) as well as bringing it to the panel. I know false accusations could be harmful, but a false accusation will only hurt the accuser in the end. And, if true, it could encourage others to speak up, if they kept quiet before (for whatever reason). Also, I think that the people who are going to go off half-cocked and screaming to everyone about their problems aren't going to care whether anyone tells them they should or shouldn't. And since there aren't too many like that, I don't think you'd be opening the floodgates to a bunch of b*tching. Anyway, just a thought. I'm sure others might disagree here.

Oh, and I like the forum trading guidelines, but shouldn't this be added as a sticky to the got toys? and/or need toys? threads, instead of in the general FAQs?

[CCVegita]

Oh, and I like the forum trading guidelines, but shouldn't this be added as a sticky to the got toys? and/or need toys? threads, instead of in the general FAQs?

Also, since there are people listed to contact for MUSCLE questions I think it is only fair to put up Battle Beast people on there too.

[Imp]

Wow. I don't buy the toys, I'm just here for the storyline and 'cause I like you guys. This is an interesting new look at your hobby for me.

I'm also interested because of the mature responses to the drama. Other boards would have gone down in flames by now, I think, but not this one. Good going, guys!