17 replies to this topic

[Soupie]

It's to the point where I think we are right on the cusp -- the cusp I say -- of figuring everything out! Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration, but anyhow, check this out!

I found the following Kinkeshi Battle Game set featured on Naochin's site. I figured all the figures in the set belonged to the same tree. And, sure enough, they do! Part 19, Tree 2.

The interesting thing is that one sculpt from the tree is missing from this set -- #195, the Spinning Top. As you can see, the Spinning Top sculpt would not really work with this play set. This leads me to believe the Spinning Top was purposefully not molded, while the other sculpts on the tree were.



So, here is another bit of "evidence" indicating that Bandai was able to purposefully, and maybe easily, target sculpts on tree that they did not want to make. In other words, more evidence suggesting that the Non-MUSCLE sculpts are not a production error.

[Soupie]

Veers, you're exactly right, but I'm saying this indicates that the Non-MUSCLE sculpts were left out on purpose. Again, I think you're right that this means then that the Super Rares may then be mistakes. Do you see what I mean? Though related, there is a difference between the Non-MUSCLE sculpts and the Super Rares.

(Also, good call on moving this. I that too right after I made the post.)

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Very cool find Soupie! I would have never thought of looking at any of the keshi playsets for info. Although your find does seem significant, molding an entire tree of figures and cutting the OBVIOUS useless one out isn't a hard task either. When popping figures off the tree they could have just left 195 on the runner and threw the whole thing in the recycle pile. So they could have done this with some Super Rares as well, but there is still no evidence as to why they would do this. Keep looking in the sets featured on Naochin's site! I know there are a few other sets with groups of figures that may be from the same trees.

[Soupie]

(1) Nevertheless, this still indicates, concretely, that individual sculpts belonging to trees/molds were sometimes purposefully not produced, as opposed to accidentally due to a mold/plastic malfunction, while the rest of the sculpts on the tree/mold were produced. Therefore, it becomes even more plausible that the Non-MUSCLE sculpts were left out of the MUSCLE toy line ON PURPOSE, as opposed to being left out due to a mold/plastic issue.

(2) You're right about the possibility of having the workers/machines just pick off the sculpts they wanted and allowing the rest to stay attached to the "tree." And this is mere speculation, but I'm reminded of when I worked for Hershey Ice Cream.

I worked on a machine that produced Twin Pop Popsicles. I had to manually pick out the Popsicles that came off the line too short, too long, broken, or coming out of the wrapper. Let me tell you, it was pretty chaotic.

The line I worked on was 1 of 4 of a kind in the world -- able to produce 14 pops at once. However, there were days when we only ran 7 pops at once. What they did, and this is different than injection molding, was only squirt mix into 7 of the molds. (With injection molding, all the mix enters at once -- not in 14 different streams like the pops.)

Anyhow, in my opinion, having the workers/machines pick off thousands of wanted sculpts, while allowing thousands of Non-MUSCLE sculpts to be made and then dumped in the trash/recycle bin just seems inefficient at best and silly at worst.

I think it would save time, man power, and money if they simply blocked of the unwanted molds, or somehow removed them from the larger trees/molds.

Anyhow, I know we've already had this discussion ad nauseum, but that's just my (humble) opinion based on working in a "mass-production" factory. Take it for what it's worth.

Edited by Soupie, 07 August 2007 - 09:08 AM.

[Soupie]

Here's more speculation, but take a close look at Arforbe's Kinkeshi tree. Notice the line that runs across each of the feeder channels that run to each individual sculpt. I'm wondering if those line indicate where the individual, metal mold for each sculpt was pieced together with the rest of the individual, metal molds to create the overall "family" mold.

I wonder if TGB could comment on this?

[Soupie]

Obviously this is a very crude sketch, but it gives you the general idea of what I think the MUSCLE molding system MAY have looked like.





Individual molds that were pieced together to form semi-permanent "family" molds consisting of several individual molds. The individual molds could be removed at will.

Edited by Soupie, 07 August 2007 - 09:57 AM.

[jkaris]

Interesting idea. Should be easy enough to validate if you ask around on those casting/molding boards you guys were visiting a while ago.

[Soupie]

Oh God, I don’t have the energy for another production discussion.

I think this is a very meaningful, but confusing discovery, because there are two ways to look at it.

1. Bandai could easily control the figures they made.
2. They made all there figures at once, and had an efficient sorting system.

I would hesitate to say this proves anything concretely, but I will concede that common sense tells me that #1 is probably true.

Well, we know that the tree in question has 9 sculpts on it in the MUSCLE toy line. But when the Kinkeshi play set in question was released, only 8 of those sculpts were apparently released. So, you're right that we don't know if the 9th sculpt was made and discarded, or simply not made; however, we can know "concretely" that the sculpt wasn't released from the factory (earlier I said "produced" and that wasn't a good choice of words, because that, as you say, we don't know concretely) even though the other sculpts on the same tree were, just as the Non-MUSCLE sculpts weren't released with the MUSCLE toy line.

Edited by Soupie, 07 August 2007 - 11:10 AM.

[Soupie]

Well, we know that the tree in question has 9 sculpts on it in the MUSCLE toy line. But when the Kinkeshi play set in question was released, only 8 of those sculpts were apparently released. So, you're right that we don't know if the 9th sculpt was made and discarded, or simply not made; however, we can know "concretely" that the sculpt wasn't released from the factory (earlier I said "produced" and that wasn't a good choice of words, because that, as you say, we don't know concretely) even though the other sculpts on the same tree were, just as the Non-MUSCLE sculpts weren't released with the MUSCLE toy line.

Well, the other factoid in this the date of of production for this tree.

I'm assuming it goes like this:

(1st) Kinnikuman toy line -- with Spinning Top

(2nd) Kinkeshi Play Set -- without Spinning Top

(3rd) MUSCLE toy line -- with Spinning Top

I can't make out a date on the play set box, so it's really more speculation, but if I have the order of production correct, it looks like the Spinning Top was left out of the play set simply because Bandai didn't want it in the play set. Obviously, we could also speculate that the Spinning Top mold was broken during the production of the play set... we just don't know.

[Soupie]

Well, it looks like I do have the time line wrong.

Here is the text on the page translated:

Concerning the < throne contention battle game > The opposition game which uses the キン turning off. The similar commodity to also the boom period of 84 years existed, but is not mere resale and completely the new die is caused. Completely there is no common part. Also the gimmick is simplified, front and back left and right to attach sluggishly, hits the partner from on the hand and being to drop, does. The child who becomes hot it is rough when you think, about コレ simple one to be broken and perhaps the て it does not have. The ポージングキン turning off of part 19 belongs 8 bodies. 91 year edition キンケシ it is beige hard vinyl chloride make in the same way.

Looks like it was released in 1991, which would have been after the MUSCLE toy line.

So, it looks like the Spinning Top was released with the Kinnikuman line, the MUSCLE line, and then left out of the Kinkeshi play set.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Oh Yeah! That's right it was the 91 set. They had another ring released earlier than that as well. So It's kind of possible that this is an entirely new Mold! Chances are the old ones were used to exaustion, and they would have probably just made a new mold with only the 8 figures minus the top. Interesting.

I think this is the older one. It would appear that it's possible that the figures were randomly packed. I can't really tell.
http://ulala69.hp.in...stling-game.htm

[Soupie]

Oh Yeah! That's right it was the 91 set. They had another ring released earlier than that as well. So It's kind of possible that this is an entirely new Mold! Chances are the old ones were used to exaustion, and they would have probably just made a new mold with only the 8 figures minus the top. Interesting.

I think this is the older one. It would appear that it's possible that the figures were randomly packed. I can't really tell.
http://ulala69.hp.in...stling-game.htm

I think what Naochin was saying is that the ring was completely new, with no part the same as the old ring -- though you could be right about the figure molds being new as well. However, I can see Bandai looking over the "old" molds that still worked and simply choosing one with a load of figures on it that would work with the new ring -- Part 19, Tree 2.

I just don't see them making brand new molds for this play set -- specially since the sculpts are the same.

Anyhow, I think what Naochin says about the sculpts is a little cryptic:

The ポージングキン turning off of part 19 belongs 8 bodies.

What do you think "the turning off of" means? Do you think it simply means "8 figures were taken from Part 19?"

[gilgar]

You posted a little too quickly for me, but I was starting to think the same thing. I think individual molds are a VERY real possibility. Based on Marty’s comments about molds breaking down it seems much more cost efficient to replace one figure mold if it is wearing down instead of an entire “tree” because one figure is wearing down.

Individual molds are definitely a possibility. The Kinnikucolosseum I purchased has unique scupts that to my knowledge are not available elsewhere. They are on strings as shown in this thread: http://www.littlerub...?showtopic=7617

the strings are either individual ones, or more likely cut from a longer string with just these ring exclusive figures.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

What do you think "the turning off of" means? Do you think it simply means "8 figures were taken from Part 19?"

"Turning off" is a mistranslation of part of the series name. I see it all the time, in just about every translation I do of Kinnikuman stuff. It usually follows as "meat man turning off" I can't remember the series full name so I can't recall what "Turning off" is suppose to be. Naochin is just stating that the 8 figures are from part 19. You should really read that backwards.

The 8 bodies belong to part 19 of "meat man Turning off".