113 replies to this topic

[Biffard]

I'm thinking about attempting to complete a set of poster muscle but in bootleg version. However, I wanted to get some opinions first on a few questions:

1- Is this even possible? (I don't think so because of the lack of muscle bootlegs like #15, 195 or 153)

2- How many figures do you think are not made in bootlegs?

3- Could gaps or missing bootlegs be replaced by customs?

4- Am I wasting my time?

Customs are more of an art and take more talent to make than bootlegs, but would they qualify in order to complete a bootleg set? I am fairly certain that a complete set of pure bootlegs can't be done but if customs could replace the missing figures then I might consider going for it. Let me know you guys think?



l.design, I know you collect muscle bootlegs so if you read this let me know what you think. I'm sure you would have an idea of how many bootlegs there are based on your own collection.

Edited by Biffard, 18 May 2010 - 05:56 AM.

[fuzzbuster]

It is hard to say how many bootlegs there are in existence. The very nature of them tends to shroud their various origins in mystery.

From my own experience in collecting bootlegs, I have found the vast majority of them tend to come from China and other areas around the Pacific rim. These are usually straight up Kinkeshi bootlegs, so there are many non-M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts that you come across. However, though I do see many of the U.S. sculpts, there are some that are rarely, if ever seen, much like you mentioned.

There are cases where bootlegs can be traced to non-Asian origins, such as Exogini, Cosmix, etc., where the molds and the timing of their appearance suggests that they were cast from M.U.S.C.L.E.s as opposed to Kinkeshi, but even in those instances certain sculpts are notably absent.
But of course, that is not proof that they do not exist.

Recently I began to divide up my collection of boots into different categories; first by color, and then into subgroups within that based on trademark, size, material, and so on. Perhaps now would be a good time to see if I can sort out the sculpts based on the U.S. and Japanese numbering systems to see what type of pattern emerges.
If other bootleg collectors collected similar data on their collections, it might be interesting to see what we come up with.

[walker13.1]

Simply Wowsers!!!

[Biffard]

Thanks for the input so far

So if I do go for this I am going for all poster sculpts but in any color. I don't think I want to be so picky as to only collect flesh colored bootlegs exclusively.

Fuzzbuster brought up a question: Are cosmix and exogini considered bootlegs?

The definition of a bootleg is something made, reproduced, or sold illegally or without authorization. Do cosmix or exogini fall under this category?

I hope they do so that I have a few other options to look at. I'll probably try and go for it, plus it will give me more content for my blog!

I'll be posting a need toys post asking for bootlegs soon so if anyone has some check out my trade list.

Edited by Biffard, 18 May 2010 - 03:20 PM.

[stoneyface]

best idea i have seen in a long time. go for it!

[sherrie]

I don't consider customs as bootlegs either.
I think this is a great idea.
I believe Soupie also collects bootlegs, so you might check with him also.

good luck and if come across any You will be the first to know!

[fuzzbuster]

Are cosmix and exogini considered bootlegs?

The definition of a bootleg is something made, reproduced, or sold illegally or without authorization. Do cosmix or exogini fall under this categorization?

That is somewhat of a grey area. Though they were reproduced without expressed permission, it was done by a major toy manufacturing company, on par with Matell or Hasbro within their own respective countries. This means that there was at least some level of quality control involved in their production, which is evident from the quality of the sculpts and packaging.
These were legitimate toys in the countries they were released in, though in the technical sense they are indeed bootlegs.

Personally, I always thought of those two lines as representing the higher end of the bootleg spectrum, using criteria such as variety of known sculpts, higher quality sculpts, and successful marketing.
The lower end would be figures along the lines of Future Man, with their limited amount of known figures and ultra-poor quality casts.

[SmokinGun]

Thats very challenging. It will be tough to complete a full set of bootlegs. But its very well worth it at the end.

[Biffard]

Personally, I always thought of those two lines as representing the higher end of the bootleg spectrum

I agree with you fuzz, I have always viewed them in that way also. I think I will count them as being bootlegs and include them in my collection. Especially if I cannot find another form of bootleg for an exogini or cosmix figure.


Yes, this will be a very challenging process but I have a long, long, long term mentality of trying to find all the different figures. However, according to the definition of a bootleg I think that customs could fall into that category as well, but, I will first do my best to not include customs. If I included customs I would feel like I cheated the experience of collecting them all because I could just order the ones I need and really no effort would be needed. So for now I'm saying no to the customs.

Edited by Biffard, 18 May 2010 - 04:03 PM.

[stoneyface]

well there are only 100 exogini figures, they won't get you all the way but could help you fill in blanks if you need them too. personally i don't consider them bootlegs

[Ericnilla]

once you start your set, post what #'s you got... If i got any you need i'll send them your way. although most i have i think are NM sculpts...

[walker13.1]

Some bootlegs are a combination of figures. I have a red one that has six arms and the head of Terri Bull.

[fuzzbuster]

(I don't think so because of the lack of muscle bootlegs like #15, 195 or 153)

Apparently you can narrow that list: Gilgar's find.
Some bootlegs are just more rarely seen than others.

Some bootlegs are a combination of figures. I have a red one that has six arms and the head of Terri Bull.

Yes, and that brings up the topic of "customized bootlegs," which are boots cast from either unique non-Kinkeshi sculpts, or, as are commonly seen, sculpts cast from mash-ups of multiple Kinkeshi.

[Biffard]

That's a big confidence booster to know that #153 is made in a bootleg! I had never seen or heard of one until now. That helps me feel like a bootleg collection is a little more attainable than I had previously thought.

The six armed terri bull is pretty cool. I guess that would count as a two for one right?

I am still a little concerned that this may be a unrealistic project. I'd like to get a little more info on the available known bootlegs and maybe start a count of how many different bootleg figures there are. So far on u of Muscle I've counted about 30 or so.

I know if I include exogini there are a bunch more and I have seen a few others around the board. I guess if I can get a good count of at least half of a full set then will go for it without question.

Based on personal collections, does anybody know for sure that there are at least 100 different bootleg figures?

[fuzzbuster]

Based on personal collections, does anybody know for sure that there are at least 100 different bootleg figures?

I would guess that I have at least 100 of the US sculpts as bootlegs, though I do not know the exact number.

[fuzzbuster]

After a quick sort through my bootlegs, I have come up with 139 unique M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts:
 IMG_3371.JPG   122K   56 downloads

I probably have a few more knocking around, but this shows that more than half of the M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts exist as bootlegs.

[Biffard]

As for including cosmix, exogini, and customs - I would disagree. But it's a 100% subjective argument and both sides have sizable, valid arguments.

I think I'll avoid including exogini and customs but if the time comes when I get desperate I may at least include exogini as I definitely don't think customs are genuine bootlegs.

OK, I'm going for it! I'll post a need toys post later on today and I'll keep my progress updated on my blog
So far I have three bootlegs so I have a long ways to go, I had more but traded them but it was worth the trade.

I'd like to see people put together their pictures of bootleg MUSCLE mash-ups too. Again, I know a place that would be happy to house them.

I think any variations and information about bootlegs would be a very interesting to learn about. I'll keep veers up to date with any of my findings as I go about collecting them. I hope other people help him out too. I have next to none experience running a blog but I am learning how much detication and time it actually takes! So I encourage people to help veers out as much as possible with any info that can be found as it is beneficial to all of us and it helps our hobby grow.

Thanks for all of you guys help and hopefully I can get this thing started soon!

After a quick sort through my bootlegs, I have come up with 139 unique M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts:
 IMG_3371.JPG   122K   56 downloads

I probably have a few more knocking around, but this shows that more than half of the M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts exist as bootlegs.

Fuzz, that is a very impressive bootleg collection! You're closer than I'll be in a long time! If you want I'll keep you in mind as I collect bootlegs to see if I get any doubles of ones that you don't have.

[fuzzbuster]

Absolutely keep me in mind for trades in the future. From a brief glance, I can see that I have quite a few multiples, and hope to have even more to trade in the near future.
I would love to help you in your endeavor to complete a set of M.U.S.C.L.E. bootlegs, and seeing which ones I am missing makes me want to see if I could do the same.

This topic is also inspiring me to more fully catalog my collection, not only to my own satisfaction, but maybe in an attempt to see what strange patterns will emerge from the data collected.

So what are the three that you are beginning your set with?

I'd like to see people put together their pictures of bootleg MUSCLE mash-ups too. Again, I know a place that would be happy to house them.

Here you go:
 IMG_3376.JPG   1.27MB   22 downloads  IMG_3377.JPG   1.22MB   10 downloads
 IMG_3378.JPG   1.13MB   18 downloads  IMG_3379.JPG   1.04MB   4 downloads

Another oddity encountered when collecting boots are sculpts which are clearly knock-offs based on Kin/M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts, yet modified, or made independently of the original sculpts:
 IMG_3380.JPG   1.12MB   7 downloads  IMG_3381.JPG   1.05MB   3 downloads
 IMG_3387.JPG   1.29MB   11 downloads  IMG_3388.JPG   1.23MB   4 downloads
 IMG_3384.JPG   1.23MB   7 downloads  IMG_3386.JPG   1.29MB   4 downloads  IMG_3385.JPG   791.09K   7 downloads

And then there are times in which the material from which a bootleg is cast is what is interesting about it:
 IMG_3390.JPG   977.67K   11 downloads  IMG_3391.JPG   991.98K   5 downloads
Along that same vein, I have two bootlegs made of a material that increases it's buoyancy as the temperature of the water they are in increases.


And of course, there are even times when it is hard to tell if a figure is a bootleg or actually legit, much like the glow-in-the-dark Mountain I cannot figure out.

[jkaris]

If you guys are looking to include the keshi bootlegs from Japan (as Fuzz has posted some pics of) I do believe that Sherrie has a very large box full of them.

[Nyarlathotep]

What a fun project! I try to collect boots as well. I think my favorites are like those Fuzz was talking about, ones that are not just copies but mimics, mashups, or just unique imitations. I'd love to get my hands on one of those Buffaloman/Ashuraman combinations. Makes me want to organize my tiny group. Good luck, I look forward to how seeing how this progresses.

[SmokinGun]

After a quick sort through my bootlegs, I have come up with 139 unique M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts:
 IMG_3371.JPG   122K   56 downloads

I probably have a few more knocking around, but this shows that more than half of the M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts exist as bootlegs.

Wow! Sweet collection of boots man. It must have taken you a very long time to get what you have.

[Biffard]

So what are the three that you are beginning your set with

Alright so far I definitely have #37 and #112(with the crotch stain).

Now I need some clarification. In the pics below I have the two official bootlegs. #112 says china and #32 says Hong Kong on their backs. The #185 is a legitimate MUSCLE for color reference. Although it is hard to tell the #95 is a lighter colored pink and seems to stand out when it is around other muscles because of the light color. Is this a very well made bootleg or a discolored muscle?
 P5190482.JPG   581.95K   21 downloads  P5190483.JPG   584.81K   12 downloads

Another question is what are these? The #107 sunshine is a 29th anniv. kinkeshi for color reference. I'm assuming the two orange ashuraman are kinkeshi but they are shorter than my other ones and are not 29th anniv. Also is the pink one a exogini?
 P5190484.JPG   565.14K   13 downloads  P5190485.JPG   568.97K   9 downloads


@ jkaris, thanks for letting me know. Yes I am counting all bootlegs as long as they resemble the official muscle sculpts. I will PM sherrie now!

Edited by Biffard, 19 May 2010 - 04:48 PM.