385 replies to this topic

[Soupie]

Yes, Veers actually suggested this when jkaris revealed the 11 (which I agree, gilgar, should be considered seperately.) So, if I did consider the varient theory, I ironically wouldn't apply it to the 11.

However, I believe KM mentioned that the variant concept is a relatively new phenomenon. The other issue, I feel, is that there is no advertising of these "rare" figures. (I've recently considered that SC could be a varient.)

However, considering that it looks as if Mattel/Bandai purposefully produced each figure in only 7 colors, leads me to consider this option. However, I'm still not convinced the rareness of some colored figures (PURPLE Claw) is purposeful.

Like Veers was saying, I'm starting to have a heard time believing the SRs are mistakes, which I used to firmly believe.

Also, in the back of my mind is TGB, who has said for years that the SRs are salesman samples.

At this point, any theory that allows for a colored SR looks good!

[Soupie]

However, I believe KM mentioned that the variant concept is a relatively new phenomenon.

Is there any precedent for Mattel or Bandai releasing a line of toys that includes varients?

Were there varients in the kinnikuman line?

[Kevin Mayle]

However, I believe KM mentioned that the variant concept is a relatively new phenomenon.

Is there any precedent for Mattel or Bandai releasing a line of toys that includes varients?

Were there varients in the kinnikuman line?

Someone more knowledgeable about this than me will have to chime in about Kinnikuman variants other than those new Romando variants, but yeah, the whole short packed-limited run variant figures produced solely with the collector in mind didn't happen before the mid-90's.

[jkaris]

There were variants and chase figures in the original kinkeshi line. Every so often in the capsules, you'd find a glitter, tan or black figure. So yes, there was a precedent prior to Mattel getting the MUSCLE line.

[Kevin Mayle]

There were variants and chase figures in the original kinkeshi line. Every so often in the capsules, you'd find a glitter, tan or black figure. So yes, there was a precedent prior to Mattel getting the MUSCLE line.

Aha! Very cool. So it started in Japan and caught on in America later. I wonder if some American toylines experimented with the idea back in the 80's. Maybe MUSCLE with the SRs.

[Kevin Mayle]

QUOTE 
There were variants and chase figures in the original kinkeshi line. Every so often in the capsules, you'd find a glitter, tan or black figure. So yes, there was a precedent prior to Mattel getting the MUSCLE line. 

Aha! Very cool. So it started in Japan and caught on in America later. I wonder if some American toylines experimented with the idea back in the 80's. Maybe MUSCLE with the SRs.

Unless I'm mistaken, the first American toyline to have chase figures (short-packed with the collector in mind) was Marvel Legends. Female figures have always been short-packed for sales issues, not with the collector in mind. Before that, rare figures like Yak Face from Star Wars and Iceman from Secret Wars were rare because they weren't released in North America. So yeah, the theory that the SRs were only released in Canada seems like a possibility. That would be pretty cool, because it would mean there should be a few more examples of each popping up and then Alex might be able to complete his collection of SRs.

Edited by kevinmayle, 19 July 2006 - 01:47 AM.

[Soupie]

There were variants and chase figures in the original kinkeshi line. Every so often in the capsules, you'd find a glitter, tan or black figure.

Were these variant figures advertised on packaging and stuff?

[jkaris]

There were variants and chase figures in the original kinkeshi line. Every so often in the capsules, you'd find a glitter, tan or black figure.

Were these variant figures advertised on packaging and stuff?

Not that I could see. But since I don't read Japanese, it might be in the fine print on the mini-books.

[Soupie]

Variants could have been a selling point, but aren’t mentioned. To me, this makes variants for the US figures a non-issue.

Also, why not include these variants in the Quik promotion rather than regular poster-MUSCLEs?

Earlier, I said that I thought the SRs/Non-MUSCLE sculpts were a mistake, and then said I didn't think they were a mistake.

What I mean is that I'm beginning to feel that the Non-MUSCLE sculpts (the 40 odd kinnikuman from parts 1-21 not on the poster) were purposefully not included though they could have been.

The SRs, though, may be mistakes. But like you were saying, veers, their small number seems to fly in the face of (1) them being a regular part of the line, but also (2) them being mistakes.

Like you guys were saying, what toy company accidentally makes toys it isn't supposed to, and sells them?



Not to go too far out on a limb here -- just thinking aloud -- is it possible that as others have said here and there -- that Mattel asked Bandai to show them what they could do and Bandai made a slew of, say, MUSCLEs from the early parts, including colored figures, as samples/prototypes?

But immediately there is a problem -- parts 15-21 were not created yet in 1984 and early 1985, when Mattel would have requested prototypes. So sculpts from part 21 can't be prototypes!

[jkaris]

But immediately there is a problem -- parts 15-21 were not created yet in 1984 and early 1985, when Mattel would have requested prototypes. So sculpts from part 21 can't be prototypes!

MUSCLEs were 86-87.

[Soupie]

A lot of MUSCLE merchandise -- posters, packages, etc. -- is dated 1985.

I'm not suggesting that the bulk of MUSCLE merchandise wasn't being made in '86 and '87, only that production -- and thus prototypes/samples -- would have been created in late '84, early '85.

In other words, it makes sense to assume that prototypes/samples would have been created in 1985 or before 1985.

[Soupie]

Here's a pic of the back of a 4-pack featured at Tortle's site.

(1) Because it is dated 1985, we know the 4-pack was made in '85.
(2) There is also a poster offer, so we know the poster was established by '85.

Here are parts of a conversation you and I had, jkaris, when Dr. Bombay MUSCLE SR was found:

I was thinking that since Prt 28 was made in 87, that 15 would have been much earlier. Not so. I just checked my mini-books. Parts 15-26 are all dated 1985. So they would have been in production in the same yer that flesh MUSCLEs were run, assuming that MUSCLEs were done in '85.

Hm, all Non-Poster MUSCLEs discovered so far come from parts 15 and up... Parts 15 and up made in 1985.

Although full production may not have begun in 1985, it's conceivable that MUSCLEs were also made in 1985.

Super Rares found were from Part 15 (1985) to Part 28 (1987). MUSCLEs, according to the dates on their package, were manufactured in 1985 and distributed in 1986 and 1987. So it is definitely concievable that Parts 15 to 26 might be found as MUSCLEs.

So, it looks like kinnikuman parts 1-21 were available in 1985 -- the first year of MUSCLE merchandise production. Therefore, it is concievable that any sculpt from parts 1-21 could have been made by Bandai as some sort of prototype or salesman samples, as TGB has maintained from the beginning.

[matthewf1tz]

Not to go too far out on a limb here -- just thinking aloud -- is it possible that as others have said here and there -- that Mattel asked Bandai to show them what they could do and Bandai made a slew of, say, MUSCLEs from the early parts, including colored figures, as samples/prototypes?

further to this comment, and the questions about selling tactics deployed by toy firms in the 80's, in a response to TGB's requests for Nerfuls some months ago, Soupie kindly pointed us to Teacher of Madness' Website

to qoute direct from the site:

Thanks to the daughter of a Parker Bros. employee of the 80's, what could have been a completely lost treasure has been revealed. Apparently a second series of Nerfuls was planned, designed, produced in limited quantities, and even packaged for display at trade shows. She put some of her extras up for auction, and sold some direct to members of the Nerfuls Yahoo group this year. I have managed to collect four of these never sold Nerfuls, and am eagerly searching for the remaining four. So folks, a real treat, half of the never released series two Nerfuls.

Teacher of Madness goes on to show photos of these figures and I recognised one (honey bear) as a figure that was a UK mailaway (I now have proof of this with an unopened UK pack picturing the figure as a mailaway and giving details).

SO.....

Is it conceiveable that figures were made as samples for trade shows? AND for whatever reason some of the sculpts didn't make the final 233+ or were post the poster, but like I suspect with the Nerful honey bear, in the case of some of the sculpts a load had been made already so they had to get rid of them - so bunged them in with the rest in their limited quantity.

I think that this could be possible for the SRs that have been found in multiple quantities (SHA, BHS and the not so SR, SC). Maybe the rarer SR's (including Alex's new colour find and Johnny's 11) were the trade samples that were yet to be produced in a greater quantity and have made there way into mainstream MUSCLE through attendees of the show or employees.

I think the Nerful info helps to enforce Soupie's idea above and TGB's that they were in fact samples.

Edited by matthewf1tz, 20 July 2006 - 12:02 AM.

[Soupie]

I also think we need to begin to differentiate between the Super Rares.

For example, Satan Cross has been found in packaging several times. Both BHS and SHA have been found multiple times. The Magnificent Eleven were found together in Japan.

As hard as it is to imagine, there may be different mistakes/reasons behind the origin of each Super Rare.

For example:

(1) Satan Cross may have accidentally been left of the poster.
(2) SHA and BHS may have been trade show give aways.
(3) Geronimo may have been a prototype of colored figures
(4) DE and DM may have been production errors.

[Soupie]

Arforbes, a well-known MUSCLE collector has recently aquired 4 colored Kinnikuman figures that appear to be made of MUSCLE plastic, 1 in the MUSCLE color RED, and 3 in the MUSCLE color Dark Blue. (The first of which I alluded to above when I said, "Back to the drawing board.")

Read about them in the order they were revealed to the AKIA community:

(1) Starting with the date July 14th this thread.

(2) Arforbes creates a Red Geronimo thread.

(3) Arforbes hints that he has more.

As always, Arforbes, please share any and all information you are willing to!

(Veers, you may want to add these and this Dr. Bombay thread to the top of this thread.)

[jkaris]

Alex,

I need pics of the colored ones for the SR Faq.

[arforbes]

Alex,

I need pics of the colored ones for the SR Faq.

I am sending them to you now sir.

[Soupie]

Which brings me to believe a new theory about the origins of the Colored Super Rares and also the Flesh ones...

So far Red and Dark Blue...I wonder if there are Purple Super Rares. I think Red, Dark Blue, and Purple were the first run of colors, that would explain the mixed 4-Packs and 10-Packs and the abundance of those 3 colors over the other later released colors. Maybe they made the Super Rares in flesh and those 3 colors (Red, Dark Blue, and Purple) and then stopped those sculpts later on with the decision to only release the run of 233 with the later colors like Salmon, Light Blue, Light Orange, Magenta, and Green.

Exactly! And, as mentioned above, Kinnikuman Parts 15-26 were dated 1985. Thus, the RED Geronimo and the three Dark Blue from Part 24 were all made by or during 1985, they same year as MUSCLEs.

Also, check this out from Veer's Site: The Mattel catalog in 1986 featuring MUSCLEs:

You will instantly notice one major thing: M.U.S.C.L.E figures that are not on the poster.

Veer's seems to think they are Kinkeshi. However, considering that there are also images of colored figures that are definitely MUSCLEs, I'm starting to really like the Prototype/Sample theory!

[Soupie]

Check out this recent thread as well: MUSCLE 4-packs.

[arforbes]

Which brings me to believe a new theory about the origins of the Colored Super Rares and also the Flesh ones...

So far Red and Dark Blue...I wonder if there are Purple Super Rares. I think Red, Dark Blue, and Purple were the first run of colors, that would explain the mixed 4-Packs and 10-Packs and the abundance of those 3 colors over the other later released colors. Maybe they made the Super Rares in flesh and those 3 colors (Red, Dark Blue, and Purple) and then stopped those sculpts later on with the decision to only release the run of 233 with the later colors like Salmon, Light Blue, Light Orange, Magenta, and Green.

Exactly! And, as mentioned above, Kinnikuman Parts 15-26 were dated 1985. Thus, the RED Geronimo and the three Dark Blue from Part 24 were all made by or during 1985, they same year as MUSCLEs.

Also, check this out from Veer's Site: The Mattel catalog in 1986 featuring MUSCLEs:

You will instantly notice one major thing: M.U.S.C.L.E figures that are not on the poster.

Veer's seems to think they are Kinkeshi. However, considering that there are also images of colored figures that are definitely MUSCLEs, I'm starting to really like the Prototype/Sample theory!

I have always believed that they were actual M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts shown in that catalog...I have been trying to get a hold of one for myself for a while now so I can take a closer look.

And if you look at the first pic I posted in the same Test Thread that I posted the Blue Super Rare Auction pic, you will see that the Part 20 figures on that paper look just like M.U.S.C.L.E.s also. They have the same shine/glossiness!

Edited by arforbes, 26 July 2006 - 01:05 PM.

[Soupie]

I've recently completed a section of the MCIA dedicated to Non-MUSCLE sculpts and Non-Poster MUSCLEs.

[arforbes]

Actually I think it hurts the sample theory and supports the accidental production theory.

I'm starting to think Red, Blue, and Purple may have been the first "wave" of color. The SR's were accidentally made during the transition. Quality control suffered (probably through miscommunication) because the line was going into its second year. This let some of the "new" flesh figures and "new" color figures slip out.

Then the decision was made to do fewer figures and more colors.

Exactly!

Here is a comparison shot between the new Blue Super Rares and normal Blue M.U.S.C.L.E.s...

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